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Proposed Destroyer/Battlecrusier Changes and Purists
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RaVeN Revenge
RaVeN Alliance
#61 - 2012-04-05 01:57:53 UTC
1 problem I can see coming. Sort of reverse engineering the situation...

If you have all frigs at V, and destroyers at IV, then you are currently 8 days away from flying all Interdicters.

If you get re-skilled with 4 racial destroyer skills, you will be 32 days away from all interdicters.

BC skill could in theory add 60 days to a similar scenario. Nerfing your character effectivly by 2 months or more.

Total adverse effect is 3 months, give or take.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2012-04-05 10:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
El 1974 wrote:
I have a question.

Command ships currently requires:

1. Racial Cruiser V
...
2. Command ships I
2.1 Battle Cruisers V
...
3. Heavy Assault Ships IV
...

With BC becomming a racial skill something must change. It seems likely that:
a. the requirement of BC V for the Command ships skill will be dropped
b. Racial BC V will be a new requirement

Now the question is whether they will simply add the racial BC V as a 4th requirement or let racial BC V replace racial Cr V as a requirement, which would mean that in the future you will only need racial Cruiser IV (the prerequisite for racial BC) rather than V to train for a specific command ship.
Any opinions on this?

It'll be like this (if we combine both fleet and field command ships and remove all redundant prereqs):

The current combined prereq for both ships…

[racial] Cruiser V
     [racial] Frigate IV
Command Ships I
     Battlecruisers V
     Warfare Link Specialist IV
          Leadership V
     Spaceship Command V
Heavy Assault Ships IV
     Assault Ships IV
          Engineering V
          Mechanic V
     Weapon Upgrades V
          Gunnery II
Logistics IV
     Signature Analysis V
     Long Range Targeting V
          Electronics II

…will become…

[racial] Battlecruiser V
     [racial] Cruiser IV
          [racial] Destroyer IV
               [racial] Frigate IV
Command Ships I
     Warfare Link Specialist IV
          Leadership V
     Spaceship Command V


You will no longer need the cruiser skill to fly BCs (beyond training it high enough to train the BC skill itself, but once that's done, you can lose ever last cruiser SP), nor will you need any of the T2 cruiser role skills (HAC, Logi). All in all, getting all eight command ships will require several millions fewer SP under the new system than under the old one, even though you now have 4× racial BC skills to train to V.
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-04-06 03:43:35 UTC
Sunviking wrote:
I think a character should only get new Racial Battlecruiser skill to 5 if they already have Racial Cruiser skill to 5. Otherwise lots of people will get free access to Command Ships they cannot currently fly.


Uhm NO... I'm training BC 5 so that my oracle and nado get maxed, why should I need crusiers 5 to get the benefit of BC 5 for my tier 3 BC? What if someone had trained BC5 and never trained any racial cruiser to 5, they just loose the SP?
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-04-06 21:23:47 UTC
Seriously, they should have it so you only get the skill if you can already fly the ship, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the skill rehash.

I'm cross training my skills right now in case they announce that's how it will be. It'll take me some 3 days, but I'll still have plenty of time left to train BC V up as well before the expansion. It's almost 2 full months away...

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#65 - 2012-04-07 03:00:47 UTC
when will the change be exactly? somewhere in may?

and is it known what will happen? will we loose the destroyer and BC skill and gain points freely to redistribute or do we get the racial skills that we could fly at the lvl we could fly it?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-04-10 14:43:51 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
when will the change be exactly? somewhere in may?

and is it known what will happen? will we loose the destroyer and BC skill and gain points freely to redistribute or do we get the racial skills that we could fly at the lvl we could fly it?


From another thread currently on GD:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There are two conditions needed before we split the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill in four:


  • We need to overhaul destroyer and battlecruiser ships themselves. Cutting your ability to fly those ships by four without taking care of the underpowered hulls is a no go, because that would mean new players going for one racial line would have a hard time having valid options in these two classes.

  • We need to have a very solid skill reimbursement plan set in stone. Most likely, we would take care of the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skill refund in one move to be done with it and avoid the same inconvenience twice for our playerbase.


So no, to my knowledge skill changes are not coming in April; what we are most likely going to start with is to have a look at the tech 1 frigates and cruisers, then move up as time passes, but nothing is fixed yet.

We will do our best to let you know in advance if the skill changes are due for a specific release.

(Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1001495#post1001495)


We have a fair while to wait and get training to Destroyer 5 and BC5. If you want to.

I lied :o
Orlacc
#67 - 2012-04-10 20:58:45 UTC
By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?"

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Boomhaur
#68 - 2012-04-10 22:52:47 UTC
I hope they just keep the skills as is, I am spec mainly for sub BS ships so if they redistribute points the way it currently mentioned all it will do is give me a more expensive clone not a big deal. But it would annoy a lot of pilots who don't know or took a break from eve, and than give a lot of pilots who wouldn't train BC V and Destroyer V more SP and more access to ships they otherwise wouldn't fly if they knew in advance to train for it. Especially since they plan on making T2 ships easier to get into.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-04-11 20:56:21 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?"


I thought that was a given

I lied :o
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-04-12 02:51:08 UTC
Torak Dakos wrote:
why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-

i

Agreed. I'm more worried on how they're going to handle destroyers since in the same post, the dev stated they intend to integrate them as a ship of the line now. Does this mean the slot and bonuses will be reworked? Or will they remain largely as they are now? It seems like this is going to be a complicated process imo.
Mr Ranger
Players vs. EVE
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2012-04-12 22:41:27 UTC
Has anyone thought about other ways of possibly getting the racial BC skills up?

If they are going to add the BC skill to the ship line between cruiser and BS then isn't it most likely going to take racial BC IV to train the racial BS skill? If that is the case then people who don't even have the BC skill now could fly any BC's that they have the racial BS skill for. Granted that most people who have the BS skill will probably have BC, but i'm sure there are some who do not have it. And likewise anyone with the cruiser skill would be able to use the destroyers.

This seems like a fairly complicated change for them to implement.

Quote:
"If and when such changes occur, we would remove the generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills, reimburse the skill points (and possibly the cost) not to penalize players. Due to the way nested requirements work, it would also mean pilots would not need to re-train anything to fly Battleships or Cruisers. All of this is work in progress of course and subject to change, especially since we are still discussing skill reimbursement options."


Sounds like they have alot to consider at the moment and alot of other problems to iron out before we see any of this implemented so i honestly dont expect to see it too soon.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#72 - 2012-04-13 18:11:08 UTC
I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.

For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.

So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-04-13 20:18:12 UTC
FireT wrote:
I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.

For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.

So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more?

Of course not, because you can still fly assault frigates. Its your choice not to.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#74 - 2012-04-13 20:38:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FireT wrote:
I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.

For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.

So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more?

Of course not, because you can still fly assault frigates. Its your choice not to.


Let me clarify, I was more about being the devil's advocate here, since some people will complain about this. So I figured lets per-empt it: If the restructuring goes as planned suddenly frigate prerequisites are not needed any more. Suddenly those skills that had been mandatory to fly Recon Cruisers and Heavy Assault ships are useless but are still stuck with your invested SP.

Personally, unless you had trained them just prior to the planned skill tree changes, you should not really have them reimbursed.

I was just curious since I know this will inevitably come up, and I was wondering how giant the can of worms is for CCP. So far it looks more like Shai-Hulud sized. (Kudos who gets that reference)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-04-13 22:54:00 UTC
FireT wrote:
Let me clarify, I was more about being the devil's advocate here, since some people will complain about this. So I figured lets per-empt it: If the restructuring goes as planned suddenly frigate prerequisites are not needed any more. Suddenly those skills that had been mandatory to fly Recon Cruisers and Heavy Assault ships are useless but are still stuck with your invested SP.

No they aren't, because even if the skills are no longer important to fly recon and heavy assault ships, they still allow you to do something you couldn't previously. You have options that you wouldn't have if you had started training for HACs after this change.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#76 - 2012-04-15 01:04:18 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No they aren't, because even if the skills are no longer important to fly recon and heavy assault ships, they still allow you to do something you couldn't previously. You have options that you wouldn't have if you had started training for HACs after this change.


But that was my exact question: those ships are not options but mandatory ship paths now. When they change it they become optional ship paths. So why would I need to be punished using skills I never found any utility for?
That was why I asked. I am curious how CCP will handle it because of it. Assault and covert ops frigates become options in the future while now being mandatory. Yes I repeat myself, but it seems to be that people ignore that aspect.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#77 - 2012-04-15 12:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Whilst I think that the changes are generally a good idea, the reimbursement process will need some tinkering.

1. Players who started a character after [implementation of changes] - [time it takes to train destroyers V and BC V and all racial cruisers to III] are at a severe disadvantage compared to people who managed to do so before (if those people would want to fly all destroyers and BCs).

2. Players who just coincidentally have the ability to fly a ship will receive unwanted SP, bloating their SP and clone costs.*

Therefore, I think the skills ranks should be halved, the SP currently in the skills should be reimbursed to reach middle ground. Yes - the skills ranks would be out of line, but then who cares? Eve is an old game and making catching up some basic grunt ships faster for newbs wouldn't hurt.
Older players can chose to redistribute the SP to immediately to fly two of the current races perfectly or get 1 to V and the others to 4 and will have a little training to do to fly all of them (so what?).




*Considering that some mentally challenged people who seem to think "moar free SP = good" have trouble getting that one, here's an example: both of my combat characters are near perfect Ferox/Drake pilots (only lacking missile/hybrid specs to V), however I've never flown any of these ships and don't intend to.
The reason I can fly them almost perfectly are because I trained all the necessary skills to V for all kinds of other ships. As it stands now I'll get Caldari Destroyer & BC V, unnecessarily bloating my SP by two million per unwanted race.
Personally, I don't like Destroyers and BCs in general and if I fly one, it's either a Thrasher, Cane or Tornado, so I'd probably only get Minmatar Dest/BC to V - maybe Amarr for my CS V pilot if CS will ever be useful again.
That leaves me with 6 million unwanted SP.

However my characters are set out to stop training below 120 mill SP to keep 'travel' costs down (I often find myself sefdestructing my pod rather than trying to make it back through some bubble infested backwater). One character will break that barrier thanks to the additional SP and the others skilplan wont fit.

Sure - it's the same for everyone and the additional clone costs wont bring me to the poor-house, but I'll pay 15 mill additional isk each time I get podded for absolutely no benefit.
Considering the ships I often fly just the increase is multiple times the ship price.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-04-15 12:39:09 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?"

Both in my case.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#79 - 2012-04-17 11:54:07 UTC
Drew Solaert wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
when will the change be exactly? somewhere in may?
(Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1001495#post1001495)


We have a fair while to wait and get training to Destroyer 5 and BC5. If you want to.

great i finnished training all frigites to 4 cruisers to 3 and i have destroyers and BCs at 5 now and then i read this **** this sucks ass

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]