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Proposed Destroyer/Battlecrusier Changes and Purists
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Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-19 01:45:01 UTC
Firstly I know everything is subject to change. I just wanted to see what other people thought about this specific piece of the change.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Q: can we opt out for skills we don't want during the reimbursement process?

    • A: well, again, it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.

    Example:
  • If we go for option 1: you will get Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar Battlecruiser skills at 5 if you previously had the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5.
  • If we go for option 2: you will get Amarr Battlecruiser skill at 5 only if you previously fulfilled all conditions to fly Amarr Battlecruisers, which means having the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5, PLUS the Amarr Cruiser at 3.

    • To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.


    I know a lot of people (myself included) are purists or are pretty darn proud of their skill sheets. One might say a tad OCD. So if CCP did go with option 1 instead of option 2, Would it be a deal breaker?

    Personally I made this character for (lol)RP reasons to suddenly have Amarr BC4 Minmatar BC4 floating there with absolutely no support skills and no intention of every being trained would absolutely crush me, given how much time I've put into the character, not just playing but backstory and all that stuff.

    So thoughts ladies and gentlemen.

    I lied :o
    Jack Miton
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #2 - 2012-03-19 03:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
    Just when i thought i'd seem it all, here is someone actually whining about getting free SP...
    Do you stay up at night thinking about things to complain about or is it a natural skill?

    PS: feel free to petition CCP to pass your unwanted SP my way.

    There is no Bob.

    Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

    Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #3 - 2012-03-19 09:21:53 UTC
    OP is not the first to complain about skills they didn't want.

    Some people want the ability to delete skills with no reimbursement.

    I'm not thrilled about the proposed method, as it is unfair to people that don't have Destroyer 5 and Battlecruiser 5 trained.
    Vito Antonio
    Doomheim
    #4 - 2012-03-19 11:56:35 UTC
    I wish for a new EWAR ship that will forcefully inject random skills into your enemy Big smile
    Pyrosomniac
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #5 - 2012-03-19 15:03:55 UTC
    I, for one, am happy with the proposed 7m Skill Points I will obtain soon.

    I don't see why anyone would not be.
    Lyron-Baktos
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #6 - 2012-03-19 15:09:22 UTC
    is there any kind of idea on when this will happen? soon? in the fall? Winter release?
    Pyrosomniac
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #7 - 2012-03-19 15:11:34 UTC
    Lyron-Baktos wrote:
    is there any kind of idea on when this will happen? soon? in the fall? Winter release?


    Potentially around the next X-pac.

    Source

    Quote:
    So, how does all that affect you? Starting with EVE Online: Inferno, we will begin revamping ship classes one after the other, making sure obsolete hulls serve a purpose. This is still in the research phase and constructive feedback is most appreciated while we wait for the next ship balancing blog to come out, dedicated to how such changes will impact the Amarr Empire fleet.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #8 - 2012-03-19 15:50:10 UTC
    Most likely, they'll go for a kind of “conditional” upgrade:

    If you have [racial] Frigate III+ and Destroyers n, you will receive [racial] Destroyer n.
    If you have [racial] Cruiser III+ and Battlecruiser n, you will receive [racial] Battlecruiser n.

    This gives everyone exactly what they had before and lets people retain their racial specialisations. It's a bit more work for the DB guys to script up than what they originally intended, but going by the discussion in the blog thread, they'll probably do that anyway because it's just a “cleaner” solution to everyone's wishes.
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #9 - 2012-03-19 16:32:31 UTC
    Tippia wrote:
    Most likely, they'll go for a kind of “conditional” upgrade:

    If you have [racial] Frigate III+ and Destroyers n, you will receive [racial] Destroyer n.
    If you have [racial] Cruiser III+ and Battlecruiser n, you will receive [racial] Battlecruiser n.

    This gives everyone exactly what they had before and lets people retain their racial specialisations. It's a bit more work for the DB guys to script up than what they originally intended, but going by the discussion in the blog thread, they'll probably do that anyway because it's just a “cleaner” solution to everyone's wishes.

    The part that bugs me about it is:

    * If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days.
    * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.

    There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.

    I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels.
    Chase The Dragon
    Doomheim
    #10 - 2012-03-19 20:06:43 UTC
    It's a bit of a Darwin award really, if you know the change (or very similar) will happen and don't bother to train to get the utmost benefit, you get an award for the biggest throwback.
    Limvala Adur
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #11 - 2012-03-19 23:46:25 UTC
    I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.

    Can someone post a link please?
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #12 - 2012-03-20 01:21:55 UTC
    Limvala Adur wrote:
    I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.

    Can someone post a link please?

    Dev Blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Ship At A Time
    http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129

    Read the comments. Click on the blue "DEV" ribbons repeatedly to move to the important stuff.
    Limvala Adur
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #13 - 2012-03-20 07:21:47 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Limvala Adur wrote:
    I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.

    Can someone post a link please?

    Dev Blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Ship At A Time
    http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129

    Read the comments. Click on the blue "DEV" ribbons repeatedly to move to the important stuff.


    Thank you.

    Changes seem quite interesting. If anything, I'm looking forward skipping the annoying BS V in order to gain access to the amarr capital line.
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #14 - 2012-03-20 10:47:47 UTC
    i read the article and i have to say i really strongly dislike the proposed changes. streamlining imbalances is not always a good idea, because with balance comes boredom. if all ships perform equally well, why even have different ships? this is a problem that other games already have. if you, like me, are an oldschool WoW player, chances are that you quit because over the last years not only items, but whole character classes became too similar and bland (nowadays, a retribution or protection paladin is basically just a warrior with pink armor).
    same goes for skills. when i was a little kid, i really liked climbing trees and building treehouses. streamlining the ship progression is basically like cutting down a tree and replacing it with a ladder going nowhere. everything becomes predictable and boring

    TL;DR: we need the bad ships to appreciate the good ones. balance produces boredom.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #15 - 2012-03-20 13:38:27 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    The part that bugs me about it is:

    * If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days.
    * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.

    There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.

    I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels.
    It's only 21 and 6 days — you already have one of the four skills, remember?

    Anyway, the goal from the start has been to make it as non-intrusive a change as possible, and they've quite clearly said that they don't mind handing out a few more SP. The only thing anyone will notice anyway is that for some heavily cross-trained pilots, their clones might become a bit more expensive.

    The argument has been made that it screws over new players, but this change also implements some pretty significant SP savings when it comes to training T2 — the more you specialise, the more you save. For instance, even with the increased costs of getting those BC V skills, a player coming into the game after this change will need several millions fewer SP to get all eight command ships than is currently the case (and CSes, requiring all those battlecruiser skills at V, should be the ones suffering the most from this change).
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #16 - 2012-03-20 15:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
    Tippia wrote:
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    The part that bugs me about it is:

    * If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days.
    * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.

    There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.

    I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels.
    It's only 21 and 6 days — you already have one of the four skills, remember?

    You may have missed my point.

    The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation.

    If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #17 - 2012-03-20 15:31:07 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    You may have missed my point.

    The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation.
    Can't say I missed it. I just don't see it as much of a point. So what? Again, the whole point is to make the change minimally intrusive to everyone, and at most, it will make some people have more expensive clones.

    It's the ability that matters, not the SP, as has always been the case. The ability does not change.
    Bugsy VanHalen
    Society of lost Souls
    #18 - 2012-03-20 17:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Tippia wrote:
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    The part that bugs me about it is:

    * If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days.
    * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.

    There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.

    I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels.
    It's only 21 and 6 days — you already have one of the four skills, remember?

    You may have missed my point.

    The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation.

    If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that.

    so train it to 5 and get all your racial cruisers to 3 before the summer x-pac. you will get max returns.

    If you do not than it is your choice in not fulfilling the requirements to receive the free level 5 skills.

    If you chose not to fulfill the prerequisites than you will not receive them by choice. Your choice.

    Why should you receive the same reward as some one who put the work into training all the prerequisite skills when they did the work and you did not?

    They are giving you plenty of notice to get the missing skills up before the expansion comes out. If you choose not to train the perquisites than it is by your choice you will not receive the free level 5 skills. This is in no way the fault of CCP. If you want the skillls train the prerequisites and you will get them. you have several months, enough time to train them up from scratch if needed.

    If you can not be bothered than it is entirely your fault when you miss out.

    It is completely fair, as you will get the skills or not dependent only on your own choice.
    Ellendras Silver
    CrashCat Corporation
    #19 - 2012-03-20 20:43:59 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Tippia wrote:
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    The part that bugs me about it is:

    * If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days.
    * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.

    There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.

    I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels.
    It's only 21 and 6 days — you already have one of the four skills, remember?

    You may have missed my point.

    The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation.

    If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that.


    what the hell is the problem? you got all the time to train everything needed so you get the max reward, if you dont ok but dont nag about what others get while you could also get it.

    what i like to know is when will the change be ? dont say before the summer that is a WIDE window i like to know a date like june 1 then i know how to adjust my plans
    when we have all frigites at 4 and cruisers at 3 and destroyers 5 and battlecruisers 5 do we get the SPs free to distribute how we want or do we get all the racial destroyers at 5 and the racial battlecruisers at 5?

    [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
    Ireland VonVicious
    Vicious Trading Company
    #20 - 2012-03-20 21:25:58 UTC
    You'd think they'd make it far more simple then this.

    Give everyone all racial destroyers/battlecruisers to 4 or equivalent sp based on what pre reqs have or have not been met.

    This is far less sp given away then the other options since L5 takes the most of the sp.

    Then reinburse the sp used in generic destroyer and Battlecruiser so people can respend it as they see fit.

    What this would do is allow everyone to still fly the ships they already own since they could train a BC back to 5 with the reinbursement if they were a command ship pilot. All while not stopping players from piloting ships they already could before.

    For those who don't have the required skills for the BC either 1 or all; just give them the same amount of sp to use as they see freely.


    End result is everyone still gets to fly what they could before. Everyone gets given the same amount of sp. The only issue will be that the commandship skill may or may not end up being able to be trained without racial bc to 5. This can however just be in the requirements to fly the ship in which case that pilot has the sp to make that happen immediately anyway.


    One last issue: New players. Let them start with that same sp to spend too. Wouldn't that be nice. New toons start with a mil or 2 sp to get them going in a career path before they quit and never return. Yay learning cliff Roll
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