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Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet in the game???
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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2012-03-19 18:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Hainnz wrote:
If there are only a handful of people making gobs of isk from incursions, then it would *less* inflationary. There is only so much isk a person needs. That whole isk velocity thing the author of the blog went on about.


Its getting people to spend ISK on consumables or products or even invest in opportunites that utilise lower tier products. In short having money sat around doing nothing isn't responsible to the economy.

The deflationary aspects of a falling consumer price index (or people not buying goods) as presented by CCP dont show LP or contracts related purchases. So its hard to say how much is "invisible" in terms of investment and spending or who is doing it.

They are related, but to some extent with a stable isk faucet being balanced overall as per CCP's suggested tweaks, all we then need to ensure is ways to encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Zircon Dasher
#102 - 2012-03-19 20:00:24 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses.


Which is going to be pretty hard with all the promises/plans for iteration on content......at least until the specifics of those plans are known.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-03-19 20:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses.


Which is going to be pretty hard with all the promises/plans for iteration on content......at least until the specifics of those plans are known.


Which I have to agree is fair and valid reason for "saving for a rainy" day and should also be as you rightly point out more of an encouragement for people to be informed better about future choices by CCP as a result.

The biggest I suppose of those is likley War Costs and on what relative scale. As if its is systemic to survival I can see a real need to save or form larger allegiances. To some extent you could do some residual investment into war materials in preperation than just sit on the isk? At least its still kind of a managable investment helping to keep the economy moving.

Where the blame lies doesn't really solve the problem that exists as a result, but I do understand those hesitations to invest/spend.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Bubanni
Game of Drones
The Initiative.
#104 - 2012-03-19 20:46:32 UTC
some more interresting numbers would be... WHERE! is the majority of the isk "created" show it per region, and per high, low and null sec, (show a map) show how much from incursion and how much from rats, that would be a much more informational info.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#105 - 2012-03-19 21:54:07 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
Quote:
You are telling me there are not considerable investments in man hours devoted to incursion running?
Compared to keeping a profitable moon? Nope.

Quote:
YOU ARE TELLING ME MOON GOO IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE ECONOMY?!?!?!
What economical issues are there with moon goo (aside from being a deflationary materials faucet)?



Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep
I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot


And how often has your 6 bill shiny been blown up?


I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#106 - 2012-03-19 21:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
I see what you are talking about a single quote of the sleeper componets OF THE BLUE LOOT... that number was not a single month but over an entire year? It does not say. Compare the injection per day of the incursions

The quote I have is of the same period of time yours is not I am assuming because the number is not compared to the same number in time with Incursion OVER THE SAME EXACT PERIOD
Apple & oranges unless I see them compared over the same time like my citation did

I only see subterfudge in your citation & no comparisons with comparable numbers


Tippia wrote:
[quote=DarthNefarius]ONCE AGAIN I SEE NO NUMBERS ON BLUE LOOT IN THAT CITATION MY CITATION HAD IT
Fix your keyboard and read it again. Not necessarily in that order, but do both. Oh, and…
Quote:
Blue loot [is] bring[ing] in more ISK [and is] therefore a [bigger] ISK [faucet]
…even with all that angrish, you're still missing the point. So, read my citation and my post again, and fix your keyboard.
quote]
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#107 - 2012-03-19 22:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DarthNefarius wrote:
ONCE AGAIN I SEE NO NUMBERS ON BLUE LOOT IN THAT CITATION MY CITATION HAD IT
Fix your keyboard and read it again. Not necessarily in that order, but do both. Oh, and…
Quote:
Blue loot [is] bring[ing] in more ISK [and is] therefore a [bigger] ISK [faucet]
…even with all that angrish, you're still missing the point. So, read my citation and my post again, and fix your keyboard.
Quote:
I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates...
So a lot less than the cost of acquiring and keeping a moon safe.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#108 - 2012-03-19 22:11:16 UTC
damn buttons suck
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#109 - 2012-03-19 22:20:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[
Quote:
I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot
You could. Do you have any shred of evidence? Or, to restate the question since you didn't actually answer it: what economical issues are there with moon goo?


I have seen numbers that show a 100% increase in cost of techtanium forgot the period time too... I don't have it with me so I may be wrong... Got any info (citations please) or agraph on the price of tech goo over the last 7 years?

I would like a gander at that faucet's prices & amount of it that has been extracted & compare them it'd be an interesting graph indeed Smile
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#110 - 2012-03-19 22:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DarthNefarius wrote:
I see what you are talking about a single quote of the sleeper componets OF THE BLUE LOOT... that number was not a single month but over an entire year? It does not say.
I can only ever tell you to actually read the blog post and its sources.

What part of “NPCs bought 6.94tn ISK worth of sleeper components in Jan 2012” is unclear to you?

Quote:
The quote I have is of the same period of time yours is not I am assuming because the number is not compared to the same number in time with Incursion
Ok. Slow down. Breathe. Your previous post was angrish. Now you're closing in on incomprehensibility. You need to put a few commas, semicolons or even dashes in there to separate the phrases.

No. My quote is not for the same time period.
(alternatively) Your quote is the same time period as… what, exactly?
(alternatively) Yes, the numbers for the incursions is for the same period as the numbers for the wspace loot — you have to jump around over the pages to get it all, though, because I posted those as the information was being released.

Still… I apparently cannot repeat this often enough: you're missing the point, namely that the injection of ISK form incursions is vastly (and needlessly) out of proportion to the participation (120M per user-day vs. 8:ish million for wspace vs. less than 2M for missions). I don't know why you're so reluctant to address this point…

…so I'm simply going to guess that you're afraid that your income is going to be reduced in the upcoming faucet nerfs (you will… until you adjust to do more of the harder sites). The other thing you've been missing throughout all of this is that, while this is an interesting issue as well since it hurts versatility and variety of gameplay, the personal income pretty much 100% irrelevant as far as the issue of ISK injection and overflowing the money supply is concerned. That's just the latest part of “highsec pays too much” — an issue that started, oh, back in 2004 or so. That problem is for another day and has no bearing on the issue of excessive ISK injection. So again, calm down and read what's being said without jumping to conclusions.

Quote:
I have seen numbers that show a 100% increase in cost of techtanium forgot the period time too... I don't have it with me so I may be wrong... Got any info (citations please) or agraph on the price of tech goo over the last 7 years?
Probably in one of the QENs around the time of the moon rebalance, but it will be a bit old by now. Even so, that doesn't really answer the question: what's the economic issue with moon goo?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#111 - 2012-03-19 22:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month?

Looks like something was not counted in one or the other citation


Mycitation"
Tuesday, March 13, 2012It's the economy, stupid
So I started wondering a bit about the state of the economy in EVE right now. There were some posts on FHC musing about the amount of ISK flowing into the economy right now, and since CCP Diagoras was kind enough to tweet a bunch of stats, I decided to do some math and add it all up. Here it is:

Item Source/Sink Monthly Amount
Wormhole blue books Source $10,430,000,000,000
Incursions Rewards Source $8,566,015,400,900
"

Yours:
"
Market transactions: 9.33 trillion ISK (up from 5.85 trillion in 2010).

Faucets:

•Bounty prizes: 896.34 billion ISK (up from 876.04 billion in 2010).
•NPC buy orders: 337.4 billion ISK (n/a for 2010).
•Incursion rewards: 301.8 billion ISK (and 4.7 million LP, n/a in 2010).
•Insurance payouts: 125.8 billion ISK (up from 111.9 billion ISK in 2010).
•Agent mission rewards: 74.68 billion ISK (up from 68.93 billion in 2010).
•Agent mission bonuses: 71.21 billion ISK (up from 63.45 billion in 2010)
"
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#112 - 2012-03-19 22:36:42 UTC
I'm a little confused (and apologize for being so), but how do WHs bring in any isk to the economy? I've never seen a single bounty... only been up to C4 though.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2012-03-19 22:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DarthNefarius wrote:
I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month?
Like I said earlier: most likely because it's kind of a “seasonal” thing — it's not a constant flow out of wspace, but something the big collectors (the ones creating enough volume to make a difference) gather up for a month or three in the POS until it's time to pack the Orca / Freighter / whatever to the gills and jump it out for a selling spree.

Corina Jarr wrote:
I'm a little confused (and apologize for being so), but how do WHs bring in any isk to the economy? I've never seen a single bounty... only been up to C4 though.
Because of the “blue loot” we keep mentioning: drops from sleepers that only serves the purpose of being sold to NPC buy orders. All NPC buy orders are ISK faucets, and we're simply separating these from all other kinds to get a number that is specific for wspace.

Other such orders are CONCORD buying overseer personal effects, factions buying tags, and even some left-over NPC orders for various trade goods.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#114 - 2012-03-19 22:41:00 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:


I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?


And how often does that happen? I think there's a lot more lost defending moons in a week than you lost in one ship a month ago. I doubt you lose that much that often.

Whether I've lost a pimped out shiny is irrelevant, I'm not the one using strawman arguments by pointing at moon goo as an isk faucet when it's actually not, it's a mineral faucet.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#115 - 2012-03-19 22:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Tippia wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month?
Like I said earlier: most likely because it's kind of a “seasonal” thing — it's not a constant flow out of wspace, but something the big collectors (the ones creating enough volume to make a difference) gather up for a month or three in the POS until it's time to pack the Orca / Freighter / whatever to the gills and jump it out for a selling spree.



Still 1 month that much a difference? Possible but 1 way or another funny numbers people are tossing now. I guess its possible WH ISK facet changed 3-4 trillion ISK but I'm suspicious. I guess there was also a big ISK change in incursions when they went into farming after the MOTHERSHIP bug which caused the agreements that made incursions last 5 days from 4 hours.

Something happen drasatically in WH space in these 2 time periods?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2012-03-19 22:47:54 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Still 1 month that much a difference?
vOv

I don't have the prices in my head (or the item volumes), but consider how much ISK you can get out of the 70k+ m³ in an Orca. It's a fair amount iirc. Just the fact that it's not a continuous event (because that just provides more opportunities to not have scouts and probers online to have a known route to ye olde hub, and get caught for no good reason) means that it can create some pretty massive swings. Combine this with the time it takes to collect an amount that's worth-while to export out of your hole and those swings become even more pronounced.

I'm sure we'd see similarly-sized swings if we picked any one faucet from a Sunday to a Monday, when there's usually something like 10-20% fewer people on the server.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#117 - 2012-03-19 22:48:16 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:


I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?


And how often does that happen? I think there's a lot more lost defending moons in a week than you lost in one ship a month ago. I doubt you lose that much that often.

Whether I've lost a pimped out shiny is irrelevant, I'm not the one using strawman arguments by pointing at moon goo as an isk faucet when it's actually not, it's a mineral faucet.



I've REPEATEDLY called moon goo a mineral faucet that lines the wallets of a much fewer number ( order of magnitude at least)then the ISK faucet which is known as Incursions. 
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#118 - 2012-03-19 23:16:08 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
[snip]

I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?


In other words you recovered from it no problem.

This is not the case for a lot of people who don't farm gold 23.5/7 in broken Incursions.

How often does one lose ships in hisec in general? Not too much, if one is halfway smart about it.

CCP: Get your head out of your arse, admit your "baby" needs some tough love, and fix this, now.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Zircon Dasher
#119 - 2012-03-19 23:41:40 UTC
I farmed a WH 5h/d for about a year in ~6bil tengus.

Still have them.

Never came close to losing a tengu, but I could have afforded to lose several a month if needed (and still been making ISK)

If you are halfway smart you won't lose ships that you don't want to in a WH.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-03-20 02:43:45 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Oh man LEAD PAINT CHIPS are DELICIOUS

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar