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Selfdestructing during combat: No killmail

Author
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#61 - 2012-03-16 16:13:03 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Anyway, that's a moot point, kill mails are a part of the game whether you like it or not.

SD without killmails are part of the game also; everything is part of the game whatever CCP decides to implement, so not a real argument for or agains something.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
And in terms of game mechanics two minutes is not a realistic amount of time for any fleet to kill a super carrier or titan, let alone multiples of them. Period. There is literally not arguing with that.

who said there should be a mandatory KM for everything? SD is designed to not generate one - its one of the game mechanics you are talking about.

When I said game mechanics I was talking in terms of general game mechanics, not existing ones. The aim should always be to create a system that encourages fun game play. Being able to track your success with even a remote degree of accuracy is fun, denying a kill mail by cleverly escaping a gang, avoiding them or fighting your way free is fun.

Fail hot dropping some supers, and then avoiding a loss mail by self destructing all of them, is not fun for either side.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#62 - 2012-03-16 16:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Simi Kusoni wrote:

When I said game mechanics I was talking in terms of general game mechanics, not existing ones.

so you are basically talking about game mechanics desired by you.. or what? What mechanics are you referring to?

Simi Kusoni wrote:
The aim should always be to create a system that encourages fun game play. Being able to track your success with even a remote degree of accuracy is fun, denying a kill mail by cleverly escaping a gang, avoiding them or fighting your way free is fun.

fun is always a subjective opinion and is different for everyone, so there will never be a system which is fun for everyone,
as long as loosing stuff is involved. For their part, all fun involved in loosing sh*t without slightest chance of escape is denying you the KM, which is fine for me personally. You had fun destroying ****, the victim had the fun denying you something, at least more fun than loosing everything just for your fun.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fail hot dropping some supers, and then avoiding a loss mail by self destructing all of them, is not fun for either side.

so all your fun in counterhotdropping a super ganksquad and forcing it to SD consists of killmails?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#63 - 2012-03-16 16:51:54 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

When I said game mechanics I was talking in terms of general game mechanics, not existing ones.

so you are basically talking about game mechanics desired by you.. or what? What mechanics are you referring to?

Simi Kusoni wrote:
The aim should always be to create a system that encourages fun game play. Being able to track your success with even a remote degree of accuracy is fun, denying a kill mail by cleverly escaping a gang, avoiding them or fighting your way free is fun.

fun is always a subjective opinion and is different for everyone, so there will never be a system which is fun for everyone,
as long as loosing stuff is involved. For their part, all fun involved in loosing sh*t without slightest chance of escape is denying you the KM, which is fine for me personally. You had fun destroying ****, the victim had the fun denying you something, at least more fun than loosing everything just for your fun.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fail hot dropping some supers, and then avoiding a loss mail by self destructing all of them, is not fun for either side.

so all your fun in counterhotdropping a super ganksquad and forcing it to SD consists of killmails?

Well when you are done all the evidence left that it ever happened is a kill mail, so yes, I suppose.

Would you go on the counterstrike forums and suggest they remove kdrs? No? So why are you so against them in pvp in eve?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#64 - 2012-03-16 16:57:41 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Would you go on the counterstrike forums and suggest they remove kdrs? No? So why are you so against them in pvp in eve?

I dunno what kdrs are, I do not suggest removing killmails either, I'm against introducing new ones for ships you havent killed.
There are no killmails for indirect kills, forcing someone off the cliff and getting kill record.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#65 - 2012-03-16 17:22:40 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Would you go on the counterstrike forums and suggest they remove kdrs? No? So why are you so against them in pvp in eve?

I dunno what kdrs are, I do not suggest removing killmails either, I'm against introducing new ones for ships you havent killed.
There are no killmails for indirect kills, forcing someone off the cliff and getting kill record.

Actually in counter strike (and most other FPS games) if you shoot someone, and they fall off a ledge, you get a kill :) But yeah, KDR = kill to death ratio, so removing scores.

So essentially you're ok with kill mails, but you think we should only get them in fights that last under two minutes? And I presume you've done the maths on how many ships it takes to kill a few spider tanking supers? And you still think that's good game design? Hell, have you ever even been in a small fight? Have you ever PvP'd at all?

The point is, people ***** because they have super capitals dropped on them, and they have no ******* hope of getting their ships out, killing any of us or putting up a fight. Then they fight to protect self destructs, so even if we're just on a nano roam we have to have a titan bridge and super capitals on stand by "just in case" we catch a carrier.

I don't enjoy having to drop supers on ratters, there's no "gf" in it, it's just stupid. Similarly, I don't enjoy fleet fights where suddenly half the enemy fleet vanish. Judging from the number of threads on the issue, the almost unanimous CSM vote in it's favor and the CCP dev's comment to the same effect it's a feeling the majority of Eve's PvP community shares.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Asudem
Asen of Asgard
#66 - 2012-03-16 17:29:57 UTC
Change the SD timer for capitals to 3 minutes and for super capitals to 4 minutes, but no KM for SD, thats ridiculous.
Asudem
Asen of Asgard
#67 - 2012-03-16 17:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Asudem
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Actually in counter strike (and most other FPS games) if you shoot someone, and they fall off a ledge, you get a kill :)


Since when EVE is a FPS? Anyway, if he kills himself while you are shooting at your opponent you dont get a kill either. And afaik a loss mail is still generated through SD, but Im not sure about that 'cause I never started SD.

*EDIT*
Ok, there is no mail for SD. But wayne.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#68 - 2012-03-16 17:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Simi Kusoni wrote:

So essentially you're ok with kill mails, but you think we should only get them in fights that last under two minutes?


many words.
I just think whoever flies those big things you cant kill in under 2 minutes, should have the right to deny you the KM if you arent able to kill them on yourself (how hard it might be). This is actually pretty simple.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#69 - 2012-03-16 18:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Robert Caldera wrote:
many words.
I just think whoever flies those big things you cant kill in under 2 minutes, should have the right to deny you the KM if you arent able to kill them on yourself (how hard it might be). This is actually pretty simple.

And I think it's impossible to kill a super fleet in under 2 minutes, you might think differently but you're wrong.

You might think giant blobs are the only way to PvP, and that CCP should encourage this behavior and punish players in smaller gangs, but some of us enjoy fights that actually involve some degree of skill.

But anyway, maybe since you think killing supers and carriers is so easy perhaps you'd like to post on your main, because I'm sure you have plenty of evidence to support the fact that you've ever even been in these kinds of fights? Because at the moment I strongly suspect you are just a high sec mission runner or indie toon, with no PvP experience.

Asudem wrote:
Since when EVE is a FPS?

It isn't, but PvP games keep track of kills/deaths no matter what type of game it is.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#70 - 2012-03-16 18:16:16 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

And I think it's impossible to kill a super fleet in under 2 minutes, you might think differently but you're wrong.

you dont need to kill them if they SD, to begin with.
But if an entire super fleet decides to selfdestruct within 2 minutes (lol), so be it, it will be a smackfest and profit for all of us anyways even without any killmails. You even save a lot of munition to kill all of them by yourself.

my main
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#71 - 2012-03-16 18:40:09 UTC
Actually, implementing KDR in EvE would be a good change (mine on this toon would stink, but that's another story).

Especially if the formula gave proportional credit based on %damage dealt and ship class.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-03-16 18:42:14 UTC
Why are people so obsessed with KM's anyway? I just don't get it. Whether you laid the final blow or not...that ship is no more. You win. Why do you need something to prove it?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#73 - 2012-03-16 18:46:30 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Why are people so obsessed with KM's anyway? I just don't get it. Whether you laid the final blow or not...that ship is no more. You win. Why do you need something to prove it?

Killer/Achiever metatype.

Just accept that they do, and that others take great pleasure in being able to deliver a matching buzzkill.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#74 - 2012-03-16 19:09:46 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
you dont need to kill them if they SD, to begin with.
But if an entire super fleet decides to selfdestruct within 2 minutes (lol), so be it, it will be a smackfest and profit for all of us anyways even without any killmails. You even save a lot of munition to kill all of them by yourself.

Heh, I'm guessing from the "lol" you've put next to that you've never seen it happen? It's not a rare event, it happens all the time.

Robert Caldera wrote:

"Post on your main", not link random BC page ;)

Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Why are people so obsessed with KM's anyway? I just don't get it. Whether you laid the final blow or not...that ship is no more. You win. Why do you need something to prove it?

Because not all of us PvP purely to ruin other peoples day, and PvP certainly isn't profitable. In the end the only thing to gain is a bunch of KMs saying you were there.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Mark Hadden
Russian Thunder Squad
WE FORM V0LTA
#75 - 2012-03-16 19:19:10 UTC
it is my main ffs.

I cant remember seeing any super SDing because all of them died pretty quick.
But I remember a carrier pulling that button once, its sad if one has no balls to die properly but whatever, didnt bother me much.

If you see supers SDing then its a good thing for us regardless of KM or not. I said 'lol' related to your "fleet of SDing supers", in that case the smackstorm would be worth more than a dozen of super KMs.
But yeah, as we are chatting about that, who SDed his super fleet when FAIL was around?
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-03-16 19:33:15 UTC
[quote=James Amril-Kesh]You're still failing to give any reason why it should stay the way it is

You're arguing that this is a bad idea because... making Hulks immune is a bad idea. Great non sequitur there.[/quote
Becomes you failed to kill it

Just like a hulk pilot fails to keep his ship.

You don't do things in a smart manner, you fail hard and it costs you

Don't plan to bring enough DPS, cause only idiots can't figure out 2 minutes to burn X Tank / DPS per second = Time needed to burn it into ash. (newest claim, guy has 15 caps self destruct and he can't figure out why he doesn't win? Why can't he adapt and avoid losing a km? )[/u

Always go AFK in a cargo expanded hulk with zero tank, you are going to lose it (have heard of guys losing 7 in a month and they [u]didn't learn how to adapt and avoid that happening.


So, have you figured it out yet

Hint: You are an idiot and haven't adapted if you can't figure out how much DPS you need to burn something out in 2 minutes since the numbers are displayed once started . YOU KNOW THIS FACT WHEN YOU UNDOCK! ADAPT AND WIN! If not, you fail hard and Momma CCP doesn't need to wipe your ass to fix the problem, because YOU CAN'T ADAPT TO WIN! (Case in point: Why is it guys can gank a hulk in 15 seconds or less, but you can't figure out how to gank a carrier? Gank as in, massive amounts of DPS in less then 119 seconds). Self destruct is set at 2 minutes, just so guys can't do it AT THE LAST DAMN SECOND CAUSE 2 MINUTES GIVES YOU THE CHANCE TO TAKE IT FROM HIM. Two freaking minutes to burn the ship, 15 seconds to burn a hulk....CCP didn't make it easier by remove insurance and these guys still do it to win the killmail

If it was real life and you rob a bank, you don't ask for extra time to get a headstart in the get away car; YOU FREAKING HIT THE BANK, GET THE MONEY, AND GO! So hit the cap ship by planing in advance, don't belive you win automaticly everytime you encounter a cap ship because you still have to face a 2 minute deadline to win that killmail.
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#77 - 2012-03-16 19:38:14 UTC
Every time I see one of these stupid threads I become more convinced that the real solution is to remove killmails from Eve entirely.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#78 - 2012-03-16 19:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Mark Hadden wrote:
it is my main ffs.

Hehe, no need to get grouchy about it Lol Tiz easy to just link a KB

Mark Hadden wrote:
I cant remember seeing any super SDing because all of them died pretty quick.
But I remember a carrier pulling that button once, its sad if one has no balls to die properly but whatever, didnt bother me much.

Heh in the last two weeks I've seen two people bitching about a carrier SDing on them in alliance, and another guy on our side got tackled and was told to self destruct by another of our members. Which I thought was an absolute joke, I dunno, I suppose it just grates on me.

I wouldn't mind if the timer scaled, or if it was a realistic amount of time for a fleet to kill them. But it isn't, and it isn't even like carriers are expensive ships. Hell I have a few T3s that cost more than my carriers, I don't expect to be able to SD them if I get ganked. Anyway it just strikes me as wrong when I see that some alliances literally command their members to self destruct to hide a loss like that.

Kind of defeats the point of PvP for me :/

Mark Hadden wrote:
If you see supers SDing then its a good thing for us regardless of KM or not. I said 'lol' related to your "fleet of SDing supers", in that case the smackstorm would be worth more than a dozen of super KMs.
But yeah, as we are chatting about that, who SDed his super fleet when FAIL was around?

Christ, no one, this alliance is ******* terrible at PvP. I think a few of OUR pilots may have self destructed though Lol

But I do have carriers SD on me every now and then, and I find it pretty dumb, especially when they were fighting and not just some helpless ratter caught in a sanctum. I mean I could buy a super, I have the ISK, but again where the hell is the fun in fights that last <2 minutes? Blobbing stuff to that extent just doesn't interest me, and I honestly just don't believe encouraging such a short artificial timer for fights is good game design.

Also Kadeshi had a solo one SD on them a few days back, and I've seen youtube videos of entire fleets of caps self destructing which, again, I mean that's an entire fight that just didn't happen purely to protect someone's killboard. It's kinda lame.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-03-16 19:53:15 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
[And I think it's impossible to kill a super fleet in under 2 minutes, you might think differently but you're wrong.

Actually, if you see a super fleet dieing in under 3 minutes assuming a discrepancy as the order is given and everyone activates it...you were doing something right. The thing is, they know they were losing and you want those killmails...so they denied them. Its the value that you want and its a "hah, screw you guys" from them which is just as much as "hah, we win so screw you guys...F*CK! They started SD" from you (but, at lead you don't have to drag out the battle) 1 to 1, you want something they thought they were getting but you counter it...and they now know the other thing you want.

On the same thought, if you want a killmail you can gank a hulk because they die in 15 seconds or less...which is why I bring it up a lot. Hulks die regardless of what you do 99% of the time for the driver (very little is needed, add 1 destroyer or an extra damage mod...guys are not discouraged by the insurance change but the hulk drivers suffer because of how weak the damn ship is and T2 salvage is still worth enough to cover losses), which is why I belive they need a buff at the same time if you desire a killmail change. I would have less reason to fight a self destruct change, so long as the weakest link in the damn game is given the chance.

And for anti-caps, I still belive smaller vessels with limited super cap weapons (like a frig that fires 3 Citadel torps then is empty, no cov-ops cloak or a cruiser with a few dozen cap torps) is better alternative, because its pro-active to get you to train for capital class weapons instead of whiney moaning that your rifter fleet should be able to take the death star since it worked in a movie. A dozen of those ships will still put the hurt on cap ship, larger blobs will still hurt even more against a cap and you don't need to have capital class ships to fire capital class weapons since if you prefer to fly smaller ships, just give them limited ability to put on the hurt Cool. If that is not enough, so long as you are doing capital class damage (the more DPS you should bring) to a capital you can extend the timer a bit to 4 minutes and if it goes poof after that...while having the ability to put out capital class damage then you fail and still do not deserve a KM.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#80 - 2012-03-16 20:01:14 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
it's impossible to kill a super fleet in under 2 minutes, you might think differently but you're wrong.

Actually, if you see a super fleet dieing in under 3 minutes assuming a discrepancy as the order is given and everyone activates it...you were doing something right. The thing is, they know they were losing and you want those killmails...so they denied them. Its the value that you want and its a "hah, screw you guys" from them which is just as much as "hah, we win so screw you guys...F*CK! They started SD" from you (but, at lead you don't have to drag out the battle) 1 to 1, you want something they thought they were getting but you counter it...and they now know the other thing you want.

That doesn't even make sense.

Aqriue wrote:
(stuff)

Something about hulks? What is it with you and hulks? You know I don't kill hulks, right? I'm mostly a care bear Lol

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]