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Selfdestructing during combat: No killmail

Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-03-14 02:23:22 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
yes, no killmail when selfdestruct.

Why?
Other than it being the status quo, has anybody given a legitimate reason why self destructs are a valid reason to deny killmails?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Dr Wahoos
Born-2-Kill
#22 - 2012-03-14 06:24:36 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Why would you climb a mountain without safety gear? If you don't think its possible to do it safetly, why climb the mountain ?

Let me rephrase that question....

Why do you think you can take on a carrier and 2 minutes isn't enough to destroy it? But you can gank a hulk in under 15 seconds no problem.

Let me rephrase that again...

Why the hell do you belive you would win, when obviously the second you ******* undock that any fight would last less then 2 minutes, but fail to have a proper counter: WAY HIGH NUMBERS OF DAMAGE FROM LARGE NUMBERS OF PLAYERS OR A CAPSHIP CAPABLE OF HIGH NUMBERS IN SHORT AMOUNTS OF TIME.

tl;dr - The Little Engine That Could, ****** Up and Got Butthurt Oops when someone chumped him.

You ****** up, cause if I were to do something in game or in real life (like the first question) I would make damn sure I was able to accomplish the task. I would **** over that guy who tried to self destruct....I would deny him the right to self destruct just as much as he tried to deny me a killmail. If I didn't think it was possible, I would either A) Not engage someone I don't think was possible of taking down B) Made damn sure if it was going to burn, then it will burn and make the other guy deal with replacing it. KM's are just fluffing and mental blowjobs to make you feel better, but out of game...it don't mean a damn thing except to chumps whining how they lost a carrier in a video game (can be the guy who lost it or the OP whining how they lost it, I don't care except that someone got pissed off Twisted )


Let me rephrase this... (again): umad bro?

/signed
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#23 - 2012-03-14 06:40:47 UTC
mxzf wrote:
This thread again? Learn to search before posting.

^

Also, remove killmails instead. Problem solved. Epeen deflated. Waaa.
Lee Wai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-14 08:24:58 UTC
I wan't KM when faggots get caught in their ratting supers/carriers and log before they are popped!!
How hard can it be CCP?
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#25 - 2012-03-14 11:29:23 UTC
I could agree to killmails being passed out upon self-destruct, but only if they were devoid of any fitting information at all. It should only list the hull and nothing that was fitted to it.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#26 - 2012-03-14 12:52:43 UTC
Raneru wrote:
Wasn't there plans to increase the timer depending on the size of the ship ages ago?

No. There was a player suggestion to do that.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Mangold
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-03-14 12:55:16 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Self destructed ships are still dead. You do realise this, right?



You do realise that the time when killing another person's ship really mattered is gone?

Once upon a time you could really grind down an alliance/corp/person by blowing up their ships and at that time killing a carrier really mattered (hello 2005). Considering how easy it is to grind isk today most losses doesnt really matter to alliances. Some smug lost a ratting carrier, who cares? If your main goal in eve is to pvp the only way to keep a record of you're doing is killmails. Why do you think people bother setting up killboards and why do you think battleclinic and eve-kills exists?

I've killed my fair share of carriers/dreads and one missed killmail doosent really matter to me but I think there's something missing in the game when it's so easy to avoid a killmail by self destructing. That has happened to me personally twice the last 2 weeks and I've lost count on how many that has self destructed in my face (it's way more than 15 by now). Yesterday's self destruct happened when he was at 25% structure so there's no arguing that he wouldn't had died to our small gang anyway.

Self destruct should be in the game but either increase the self destruct timer on capitals or make the self destruct spawn a killmail.
Mangold
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-03-14 12:59:02 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
mxzf wrote:
This thread again? Learn to search before posting.

^

Also, remove killmails instead. Problem solved. Epeen deflated. Waaa.


Oh yes, as you seem to be active in pvp I guess we should listen you.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Ines+Tegator
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-14 14:55:10 UTC
If you had gotten that killmail, what would you do with it?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-03-14 15:59:48 UTC
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
If you had gotten that killmail, what would you do with it?

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that I might just want to keep it for my own records?

Again, can anybody at all tell me why you should be able to deny someone a killmail if they would have been able to successfully destroy your ship otherwise?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mangold
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-03-14 16:02:17 UTC
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
If you had gotten that killmail, what would you do with it?


I was going to say something smart but then I realised that you actually don't have any idea what a killmail is and what you use it for.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Herold+Oldtimer
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Noctis
Shoot First.
#32 - 2012-03-14 16:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Nnamuachs wrote:
I could agree to killmails being passed out upon self-destruct, but only if they were devoid of any fitting information at all. It should only list the hull and nothing that was fitted to it.

I've heard this argument before. SD denies loot. That's all you need. The notion that you're somehow protecting fitting information by keeping it out of a killmail is just silly.

edit: the simple fact that there are standing orders to SD in order to prevent costly losses on alliance killboards should tell you what most people are using KMs for...they're a metric to gauge performance. If alliances consider them that important, doesn't it stand to reason that CCP should work to make them as accurate as possible?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#33 - 2012-03-14 16:43:40 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Nnamuachs wrote:
I could agree to killmails being passed out upon self-destruct, but only if they were devoid of any fitting information at all. It should only list the hull and nothing that was fitted to it.

I've heard this argument before. SD denies loot. That's all you need. The notion that you're somehow protecting fitting information by keeping it out of a killmail is just silly.

Actually Floppie, some people really do have top sekrit fitting information they are trying to hide.

Just remember, when that thanatos is the new FoTM, you saw it here first.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#34 - 2012-03-14 16:49:05 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
If you had gotten that killmail, what would you do with it?

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that I might just want to keep it for my own records?

Again, can anybody at all tell me why you should be able to deny someone a killmail if they would have been able to successfully destroy your ship otherwise?


Personally, my stance on it is that KM denial of someone who wants a KM badly is about screwing the aggressor over as much as you can. And screwing the other guy over however you can is one of Eve's central premises.

My personal opinion on what the best solution would be for KM denial (if, indeed, it is determined to be a problem by CCP) would be to cause SDing to deal damage to your ship equal to the remaining HP at the time that SD completes. So that the person who SDed would be on the KM too because they did damage to their ship. I'm still not convinced that SDing is actually a problem though.

One thing I am completely sure about, however, is that I am abso-freaking-lutely sick of all of these SD threads that keep showing up. It gets old fast when you see what is essentially the same thread popping up week after week.
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-03-14 18:24:31 UTC
Mangold wrote:
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
If you had gotten that killmail, what would you do with it?


I was going to say something smart but then I realised that you actually don't have any idea what a killmail is and what you use it for.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Herold+Oldtimer


So... what do you use it for?

Since so many are obsessing over it it has to have a great purpose in this game. But no-one has said why yet.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#36 - 2012-03-14 18:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
mxzf wrote:
Personally, my stance on it is that KM denial of someone who wants a KM badly is about screwing the aggressor over as much as you can. And screwing the other guy over however you can is one of Eve's central premises.

My personal opinion on what the best solution would be for KM denial (if, indeed, it is determined to be a problem by CCP) would be to cause SDing to deal damage to your ship equal to the remaining HP at the time that SD completes. So that the person who SDed would be on the KM too because they did damage to their ship. I'm still not convinced that SDing is actually a problem though.

To be honest it isn't an issue for a lot of players who don't engage in large fleet combat, and they tend to be the ones who post "bring moar deeps" in these threads. Similarly the "screwing people over" argument, well, sure it is. But does that mean you should be guaranteed to be able to do it?

I think I posted once in one of these threads how many dreads it would take to kill my Wyvern in <2 minutes, if I overheat all my modules it's ~70. If I'm not getting any reps, and assuming they appear instantly and I don't SD the moment I realize they have support coming. And if I got bubbled, I would constant have the SD running even if it means cancelling it and re-initiating it if I think I can get out.

mxzf wrote:
One thing I am completely sure about, however, is that I am abso-freaking-lutely sick of all of these SD threads that keep showing up. It gets old fast when you see what is essentially the same thread popping up week after week.

Yeah, but that's because it really is a big issue for us. In the last week I've had two capitals self destruct on me, The Kadeshi yesterday had a super SD on them after they cleverly used a spy to fleet warp it into a bubble, the week before that Raiden self destructed one after fail hot dropping a rorqual.

The point is this isn't a rare occurrence, supers and titans self destruct all the time because not only is it nearly impossible to kill them in <2 minutes, it's almost always impossible to get the fleet there and then kill them in that time. In the end, all it means is that instead of going down fighting, maybe getting some good kills and maybe even escaping, pilots just hit the SD button and two minutes later everyone involved goes home in a very bad mood.

I would like to say though kudos to PL, I don't know if they've made it alliance policy to ban players from self destructing, but they very rarely do it even when they have ample time and opportunity.

Herold Oldtimer wrote:
So... what do you use it for?

Since so many are obsessing over it it has to have a great purpose in this game. But no-one has said why yet.

PROTIP: People use it to judge your alliance and your personal experience and skill.

Past a certain point (a few hundred billion in kills) your KB becomes somewhat pointless, unless it is closely examined, but as a super pilot applying for an alliance it's usually nice to know if they whelp super fleets very often.

It's also nice to see what they actually do on a day to day basis, for example I said above The Kadeshi managed to kill a super capital with some very clever spying. If I'd gone on the KB and seen it, I'd probably have asked about it and ended up applying to join because it looks like fun. Instead people viewing their board will just see a few losses to a super cap, and assume they got hot dropped.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-03-14 18:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Herold Oldtimer
Simi Kusoni wrote:
PROTIP: People use it to judge your alliance and your personal experience and skill.

Past a certain point (a few hundred billion in kills) your KB becomes somewhat pointless, unless it is closely examined, but as a super pilot applying for an alliance it's usually nice to know if they whelp super fleets very often.

It's also nice to see what they actually do on a day to day basis, for example I said above The Kadeshi managed to kill a super capital with some very clever spying. If I'd gone on the KB and seen it, I'd probably have asked about it and ended up applying to join because it looks like fun. Instead people viewing their board will just see a few losses to a super cap, and assume they got hot dropped.


So it can be used as a way to keep track of progress. Cool, thanks.

Why not suggest however that instead of having the game generate a "kill-mail" for selfdestructing, have the insurance not be payed to the player selfdestructing. Then if someone decides to selfdestruct, not only will they lose a ship, but also the money it took to make it. Better then to be killed and get something back.

Just a thought.

Untill then I guess [print screen] can be your good friend
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#38 - 2012-03-14 18:58:50 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
To be honest it isn't an issue for a lot of players who don't engage in large fleet combat, and they tend to be the ones who post "bring moar deeps" in these threads. Similarly the "screwing people over" argument, well, sure it is. But does that mean you should be guaranteed to be able to do it?

I think I posted once in one of these threads how many dreads it would take to kill my Wyvern in <2 minutes, if I overheat all my modules it's ~70. If I'm not getting any reps, and assuming they appear instantly and I don't SD the moment I realize they have support coming. And if I got bubbled, I would constant have the SD running even if it means cancelling it and re-initiating it if I think I can get out.


Yeah, I understand that. And I'll freely admit that I'm not in the subset of players that does large fleet combat, so I'm not trying to say that it isn't an issue, just that I don't see it as an issue. If CCP decides it is an issue, then I'll understand that too. That's why I included my suggestion of turn SDing into damage on a KM if it is determined to be an issue, so that it shows the true picture of the fight (that the super SDed because the attackers couldn't kill it in time and the attackers only managed to do x% of the damage).

One thing I've seen a few times that I'm firmly against, however, is making it impossible to SD while aggressed. Because that opens the door to perma-pointing someone for greifing purposes without leaving them the chance to SD (which, I'm pretty sure, is one of the reasons why SD is in the game to begin with).

Myself, I'm not for or against tweaking it so that SDing creates KMs, I'm just against seeing hundreds of annoying threads about it and any form of change which makes it easier to grief people. Mostly I just wish people would stop caring so much about KMs, since they don't affect anything in the game, just people's opinions, but I don't see that happening unless they're removed from the game completely.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#39 - 2012-03-14 19:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
So it can be used as a way to keep track of progress. Cool, thanks.

Why not suggest however that instead of having the game generate a "kill-mail" for selfdestructing, have the insurance not be payed to the player selfdestructing. Then if someone decides to selfdestruct, not only will they lose a ship, but also the money it took to make it. Better then to be killed and get something back.

Just a thought.

Untill then I guess [print screen] can be your good friend

Because for most players/alliances (myself included) a few billion isn't that big of a deal?

mxzf wrote:
One thing I've seen a few times that I'm firmly against, however, is making it impossible to SD while aggressed. Because that opens the door to perma-pointing someone for greifing purposes without leaving them the chance to SD (which, I'm pretty sure, is one of the reasons why SD is in the game to begin with).

Myself, I'm not for or against tweaking it so that SDing creates KMs, I'm just against seeing hundreds of annoying threads about it and any form of change which makes it easier to grief people. Mostly I just wish people would stop caring so much about KMs, since they don't affect anything in the game, just people's opinions, but I don't see that happening unless they're removed from the game completely.

Heh, yeah, I've trolled a few of those "completely remove self destruct!" threads myself.

As for kill mails, meh, they are inaccurate as hell and people who just whore them in massive blobs and think it makes them pro are utter retards. But sometimes it is nice to see one of your kills go up on eve kill's most valuable losses, or to show who is the most active in your alliance etc.

We used to have competitions in my last alliance for who get the funniest killmails, who could do the most ISK damage in a month etc. and they can be fun in that way too. (Especially since it once led to us killing a drake in noobships. Protip: don't log off mid-fight with aggro.)

Mostly it is just annoying when, time after time, super pilots self destruct to protect their kill boards. It isn't about them "denying a kill mail", it's about them trying to protect their own reputation, and hide the fact that they did something very, very stupid.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-03-14 20:27:33 UTC
Mangold wrote:
[quote=Scatim Helicon]Self
I've killed my fair share of carriers/dreads and one missed killmail doosent really matter to me but I think there's something missing in the game when it's so easy to avoid a killmail by self destructing. That has happened to me personally twice the last 2 weeks and I've lost count on how many that has self destructed in my face (it's way more than 15 by now). Yesterday's self destruct happened when he was at 25% structure so there's no arguing that he wouldn't had died to our small gang anyway.

And this is why it is fine as right now. If you can fail 15 times, then you can fail, fail, and just keep on failing like a loser.

Seriously, if you can't figure out that you don't have enough fire power and can't think to have a cap on stand by to cyno in or fly with a few more people (seriously, 25% structure will vaporize quickly with even 2 more people), then yeah you don't deserve it. More then a dozen times, you would of thought by now that you could of found a working solution instead of "CCP, I fail badly at this game. Please make it easier to put salve on my ego." Just as bad as those idiots that kept on taking on Titan Fleets in battleships, obvious solution without CCP interfence was to bring your own damn cap ships but they didn't have any and just kept on sticking their face in the door only to get punched by a Titan repeatedly (its like, you can't learn it doesn't work so why keep on trying it ? Adapt and bring those cap ships of your own or just go home)

Next up, lets ask CCP to make Hulks immune to being ganked...if you lose 2 or 3 because you keep going AFK then well its about time CCP fix that issue cause the idiot just can't figure out how to keep it alive. (Hint: This means, the more stupid you act and whine about it, then its justifiable that CCP just needs to fix the mistakes so you don't make them anymore amirite? Roll ).