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I think Tengu is too much powerful
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-03-15 23:33:51 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Anyway, the point of my post is to show that there are a LARGE number of counters to the Tengu.
And how many of those counters involve just one ship? (As equally blinged or boosted as the Tengu is just fine.) Cuz I think most counters involve multiple ships - and that generally indicates that something is overpowered. It reminds me alot of the arguments over the NanoPhoon.


Most of them. If you have a blinged out Tengu I'd be glad to illustrate :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#62 - 2012-03-15 23:40:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Ah, BTW - I do disagree that gang boosted Tengu is too much because everyone has access to the same stuff.


Ha. Yeah, everyone can fly a link T3 - one they've invested a lot of SP and ISK. Or just ISK, for char purchases I suppose. The point is that these options are not available for new players. This wouldn't be a problem if the bonuses were small, but we're talking 30-50% speed, tackle range and sig. This is getting dangerously close to where they're a "must-have" for small gangs, where people without them will have great difficulty competing.

Retention of new players has always been a problem in Eve, and this kind of difference between haves and have-nots - when they're otherwise flying the same ships, is fundamentally bad for the game, I think.

I realise that I probably sound like a Goon here.Lol
Oh and this isn't really anything to do with the Tengu itself, but with Skirmish links in particular.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#63 - 2012-03-15 23:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Gypsio III wrote:
Oh and this isn't really anything to do with the Tengu itself, but with Skirmish links in particular.


Yeah, and I said as much. I further put out there that this will be true whether the links are on or off the field. The rest of the bullshit you spouted has literally nothing to do with the Tengu since its equally true for any ship. It doesn't belong in a Tengu thread. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-03-16 00:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Gypsio III wrote:
Ha. Yeah, everyone can fly a link T3 - one they've invested a lot of SP and ISK. Or just ISK, for char purchases I suppose. The point is that these options are not available for new players. This wouldn't be a problem if the bonuses were small, but we're talking 30-50% speed, tackle range and sig. This is getting dangerously close to where they're a "must-have" for small gangs, where people without them will have great difficulty competing.


T2 modules also provide a tangible advantage (hard to quantify, but arguably better than 30-50% if you speak in terms of t2 ammo) for SP and ISK investment. They are pretty much "must-have" to be competitive. Do you have an issue with this?

At any rate, this has nothing to do with the Tengu itself. It's an anomaly due to the perfect storm of certain factors and certainly the standout ship in the T3 class, but I wouldn't call it OP, since the 100MN AB configuration itself has some serious downsides. The other fits really aren't that common (that I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong) in the solo/small gang world.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2012-03-16 00:33:17 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:

At any rate, this has nothing to do with the Tengu itself. It's an anomaly due to the perfect storm of certain factors and certainly the standout ship in the T3 class, but I wouldn't call it OP, since the 100MN AB configuration itself has some serious downsides. The other fits really aren't that common (that I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong) in the solo/small gang world.


The only Tengus I see in PVP are 100mn or links. There may be others, but they're pretty rare.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#66 - 2012-03-16 02:57:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Anyway, the point of my post is to show that there are a LARGE number of counters to the Tengu.
And how many of those counters involve just one ship? (As equally blinged or boosted as the Tengu is just fine.) Cuz I think most counters involve multiple ships - and that generally indicates that something is overpowered. It reminds me alot of the arguments over the NanoPhoon.
Most of them. If you have a blinged out Tengu I'd be glad to illustrate :)
Suffice to say you can't provide any examples to support your argument. Fair enuff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#67 - 2012-03-16 03:13:59 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Anyway, the point of my post is to show that there are a LARGE number of counters to the Tengu.
And how many of those counters involve just one ship? (As equally blinged or boosted as the Tengu is just fine.) Cuz I think most counters involve multiple ships - and that generally indicates that something is overpowered. It reminds me alot of the arguments over the NanoPhoon.
Most of them. If you have a blinged out Tengu I'd be glad to illustrate :)


Suffice to say you can't provide any examples to support your argument. Fair enuff.


No, suffice to say that I'm willing to provide the most concrete examples possible. Are you?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#68 - 2012-03-16 06:00:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, suffice to say that I'm willing to provide the most concrete examples possible. Are you?
LOL yeah somehow I don't think that would work out too well. You don't kill stuff solo.

So you are the one making the bold claim that there are a LARGE(your emphasis) number of counters to the 100mn AB Tengu. Most of which are apparently with a solo ship. Yet when asked to provide an example, you don't seem to be able to. Instead you make a childish challenge. Sorry guy, I'm gonna call BS on your claims. You are talking out your ass.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#69 - 2012-03-16 06:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Bring your Tengu. I'll bring something to counter it. Bring another Tengu, and I'll bring something else to counter it. As many times as you like.

-Liang

Ed: Ultimately, you must admit that this game is played in game - not in EFT, and not on the forums. Frankly, the fact that you're afraid to bring a Tengu out to collect what you must believe to be free kills means that you must have more doubt than you're willing to let on.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#70 - 2012-03-16 06:32:38 UTC
NO! U bring ur counter and then I'll bring mai Tengu! Behind teh Jita undock after downtime! Or r u scared?!!!Lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#71 - 2012-03-16 06:43:35 UTC
Not of you, but the faction police won't like me very much. I believe it is worth remembering that we're playing Eve Online, not EFT Online. I have absolutely no doubt that you will have some EFT reason why nothing I can possibly put forward is a viable counter to a Tengu.... but the truth of the matter is that there's a lot of things that aren't in EFT.

I am willing to provide not simply an EFT argument but also a practical demonstration of why the Tengu has a large number of counters. If the Tengu really is as good as you say, I'm effectively offering you free kills. I am willing to put my time and ISK on the line in a way that you obviously are not.

I think that speaks volumes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#72 - 2012-03-16 07:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Norkoff
So u find lame excusez not 2 fight me?! U r scared littel gurly! Haha!!! I b waitng 4 u anyway in case u get bigboy ballz.

And please preach to me about how EvE works Liang. I have zero understanding of the game. All I understand is EFT. I just roll in my giant alliance blobs, press F1 when they tell me too, and afterwards argue officer EFT fits on VENT after the enemy cheated and sent us all back to the clonebay. (/sarcasm

Believe me, I would LOVE there to be a single rock to the 100mnAB Tengu scissors. If it did exist there would be plenty of examples. You would have plenty of killmail examples already. You might even have a kill history that implied that you killed something larger than a frigate by yourself. But you don't. Which continues to make me believe you are full of fecal matter.

Please point me to something that makes me believe in you Liang.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#73 - 2012-03-16 07:40:01 UTC
No, what I believe is that you'd love for it to be as absolutely mindless for you to kill PVP fit Tengus as it for you to kill PVE fit Brutixes. I contend there are many practical counters to the Tengu and I invite you to prove me wrong in game with your Tengu. I'd be delighted to hear any legitimate reason for being unwilling to do that, but unfortunately all I'm hearing from you is excuse after excuse about why you are only willing to talk in theoretical EFT terms.

Furthermore, I have already put some very solid suggestions out there for how to counter the Tengu.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#74 - 2012-03-16 08:16:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, what I believe is that you'd love for it to be as absolutely mindless for you to kill PVP fit Tengus as it for you to kill PVE fit Brutixes.
Man, I can't even remember the last time I killed a Brutix that didn't have a point on it. Could you refresh my memory? Probably wasn't that difficult though. Rather positive that's not how I want to kill Tengus though. But thanks for trying to portray my intentions that way. I do appreciate it.

As for fighting my mighty Tengu, I have already issued you my time and place. You made the challenge, I chose the field of battle. It is up to you to show. I don't want to hear excuses.

As for your previous suggestions on how to counter the Tengu, by all means please point me to something substantial. So far in this thread all you have done is pointed out some of questionable the weaknesses of the Tengu (missiles & cap dependence iirc). Normally I would take it upon myself to do a search of your posts. But given your rather outrageous claims with nothing to back them up so far, I really don't think it's worth my time (though I would not mind being proven wrong).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#75 - 2012-03-16 08:22:14 UTC
You obviously do not want proven wrong, otherwise you'd allow me to illustrate how practical it is to counter the Tengu.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#76 - 2012-03-16 08:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Norkoff
All I'm hearing from you is excuse after excuse. Just be there. P
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-03-16 08:33:05 UTC
Roll

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#78 - 2012-03-16 08:36:57 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Ha. Yeah, everyone can fly a link T3 - one they've invested a lot of SP and ISK. Or just ISK, for char purchases I suppose. The point is that these options are not available for new players. This wouldn't be a problem if the bonuses were small, but we're talking 30-50% speed, tackle range and sig. This is getting dangerously close to where they're a "must-have" for small gangs, where people without them will have great difficulty competing.


T2 modules also provide a tangible advantage (hard to quantify, but arguably better than 30-50% if you speak in terms of t2 ammo) for SP and ISK investment. They are pretty much "must-have" to be competitive. Do you have an issue with this?


I knew someone would bring this up, but I thought it would be Liang, his forum persona has grown old, stubborn and bitter, and he's lost touch with the average Eve pilot.

No, because T2 mods are much cheaper and easier to train for than a maxed link Loki pilot. This is obvious.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-03-16 08:47:21 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Ha. Yeah, everyone can fly a link T3 - one they've invested a lot of SP and ISK. Or just ISK, for char purchases I suppose. The point is that these options are not available for new players. This wouldn't be a problem if the bonuses were small, but we're talking 30-50% speed, tackle range and sig. This is getting dangerously close to where they're a "must-have" for small gangs, where people without them will have great difficulty competing.


T2 modules also provide a tangible advantage (hard to quantify, but arguably better than 30-50% if you speak in terms of t2 ammo) for SP and ISK investment. They are pretty much "must-have" to be competitive. Do you have an issue with this?


I knew someone would bring this up, but I thought it would be Liang, his forum persona has grown old, stubborn and bitter, and he's lost touch with the average Eve pilot.

No, because T2 mods are much cheaper and easier to train for than a maxed link Loki pilot. This is obvious.



Figure what 2-3 months for the T3 and another 6 months ofr so for leadership......from scratch.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#80 - 2012-03-16 08:52:14 UTC
So that's an additional nine months of training for a new pilot, on top of all the other basic combat skills that he needs to train also. What's average player retention time these days, it used to be around 6-9 months? This is not attractive.