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Is the new "bullet time" / time diliation feature going to completely KILL EvE?

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-09-09 20:03:15 UTC
Whiteknight03 wrote:
Do you know how much of a pain it is to rewrite code to take advantage of multi-core systems?

I'll take the solution that'll work without giving us EVE 2 thank you very much



oh the issue is not just going multicore.

there were also talks about the infiniband project where you could move threads around the server cluster.



that would be f'kin awesome, but the walls to take down just to be able to....


TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
HaxTis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-09-09 20:07:06 UTC
this is actually a viable way to control the load, i.e lag. if they can pull if off while balancing the mods and drones properly, it might actually be the best thing to reduce lag that we all know and love.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2011-09-09 20:12:58 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that.
Actually, I kind of meant that the other way around…

TD is the final solution, in the sense that “it's what kicks in when all other solutions have nothing more to offer”. Once you've pushed the server to the limit, TD kicks in an makes sure the limit isn't actually broken, but rather that the chaos gets calmed down a bit. It's a kind of a force multiplier for other fixes that lets them be worth a little bit more. Calling it a temporary solution is short-selling it a bit — it's as permanent and long-term a solution as they come since it will be beneficial in combinations with future improvements as well (since, as history has shown, as soon as the upper limit for a working fleet is moved, the fleets adjust in size to match the new limit).

It's perhaps better to think of it as something other than a solution to lag, because it doesn't actually remove lag — it removes lag-related breakage, which is just as important.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-09-09 20:15:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that.
Actually, I kind of meant that the other way around…

TD is the final solution, in the sense that “it's what kicks in when all other solutions have nothing more to offer”. Once you've pushed the server to the limit, TD kicks in an makes sure the limit isn't actually broken, but rather that the chaos gets calmed down a bit. It's a kind of a force multiplier for other fixes that lets them be worth a little bit more. Calling it a temporary solution is short-selling it a bit — it's as permanent and long-term a solution as they come since it will be beneficial in combinations with future improvements as well (since, as history has shown, as soon as the upper limit for a working fleet is moved, the fleets adjust in size to match the new limit).

It's perhaps better to think of it as something other than a solution to lag, because it doesn't actually remove lag — it removes lag-related breakage, which is just as important.

tbh I still think it has limits. Granted it might take some time to reach said limits, but still, limits.

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[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2011-09-09 20:20:46 UTC
To say what Tippia said in different words...

Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.

Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.

After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Harold Tuphlos
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#26 - 2011-09-09 20:27:54 UTC
In before incarna 1.2.1 ( or whatever TD ships as) is a bigger deal than the rest of all the incarna releases combined.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-09-09 20:42:48 UTC
I'm pretty certain that CCP has a player mandate to implement Time Dilation. I don't think you'll have to worry about a SWG NWE fiasco from Time Dilation.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#28 - 2011-09-09 20:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Veritas wrote:
......

Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~


Awesome!

How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.

Try and get more people? An offer of ISK on TQ (about what the average player could have earned in an hour) might do that.

Or just get a slow server so the normal showing of 350 will do it?

Or add some thin clients?

Or....?

Also: The term Time dilation comes from Relativity, and there its values is represented by the Greek letter Gamma. It starts at 1.0 and drops as you get close to light speed. CCP Veritas: maybe you should put the value of gamma on the screen somewhere. Have it in percent, 100% normally, and dropping as the server loads up. Going forward, tracking gamma as a function of fight size may be a good metric for the war on lag.

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CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2011-09-09 21:00:27 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
[quote=CCP Veritas]How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.


The sane plan is to add in thin clients. The insane plan is to allow time to go past 1x speed.

I haven't decided which is better.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2011-09-09 21:02:32 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
To say what Tippia said in different words...

Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.

Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.

After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary.



Why are you wasting resources fixing lag when you should be fixing lag ffs?

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Harold Tuphlos
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#31 - 2011-09-09 21:06:58 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
[quote=CCP Veritas]How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.


The sane plan is to add in thin clients. The insane plan is to allow time to go past 1x speed.

I haven't decided which is better.



The insane plan is clearly better as it is more likely that bugs will show up when misusing TD, although a sane mass test would be good as well. So do both for better testing result and fewer post release bugs.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#32 - 2011-09-09 21:08:30 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:


The sane plan is to add in thin clients. The insane plan is to allow time to go past 1x speed.

I haven't decided which is better.


Could you add faster than 1x to TQ whenever I got to do a freighter run?

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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-09-09 22:54:18 UTC
Bullet time is going to completely ruin this game. Worse than anything else before it.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-09-10 01:29:58 UTC
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
Bullet time is going to completely ruin this game. Worse than anything else before it.


Because being black screened for eight hours is p. awesome...
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-09-10 01:31:58 UTC
We already look like rejects from the Matrix so why the hell not

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Vin Hellsing
#36 - 2011-09-10 01:43:50 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
[quote=CCP Veritas]How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.


The sane plan is to add in thin clients. The insane plan is to allow time to go past 1x speed.

I haven't decided which is better.


I prefer insane plans over sane plans. Go balls-out, my friend. At the worst, it'll melt down the cluster. At the best, you'll be turning heads.
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-09-10 01:47:11 UTC
Let the blob be born and let it lag the test server to hell to make for a good test.

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inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
#38 - 2011-09-10 09:59:39 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
To say what Tippia said in different words...

Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.

Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.

After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary.


So, the way I see it, you guys consider that there are two situations: the ones when the server can handle the load and the ones when it can't. Up until now, you've been focused on the first type, so as to make it more common than the later (by increasing server capacity, by optimizing stuff, etc). Now you want to focus on the second type of situations so that no matter what happens, **** doesn't hit the fan without you knowing how it will hit. In this case, I fully endorse this project.

Or am I missing something?
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2011-09-10 10:25:45 UTC
Happy to have your endorsement, inexistin ;)

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Antaeus Fantasy
Korrupted Gaming
#40 - 2011-09-10 10:37:52 UTC
There are some people stating that it is going to ruin the game. But i havent seen any explanations why.
How can it ruin the game ?
Black screen for 6 hours ? Well that is exatly what is NOT going to happen if time dialation works.
Actualy the fleet battles are going to be even faster that way. No time loss on people trying to find next target during lag and switching to needed target much faster. Yea it happens in slow motion but results in lowering the time spent in slow motion.
So... Why is it going to ruin the game ?