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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

First post
Author
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#281 - 2012-06-11 21:20:12 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
SetrakDark wrote:
I am 100% serious when I say that CCP should delete this subforum. It is just a haven for the unfortunately mentally unbalanced and trolls trolling trolls. For new players it must be utterly demoralizing and extremely unappealing.

... and yet, if they can't take a little forum drama do they really have the mental fortitude to actually enjoy the harsh, cruel universe that awaits them....

Actually, I do completely understand your point. Often the EVE community is it's own worst enemy.


A fair point. However, "General Discussion" just has certain official connotations to it that makes you think it would be a heavily moderated forum for deep discussion about fundamental gameplay. It is not.

Furthermore, there is no shortage of venues for Eve players to be awful to one another in written form, so it's not like players won't find the ugly underbelly of the playerbase eventually, just not in what sounds like it should be an official and heavily-moderated venue.
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#282 - 2012-06-11 21:21:32 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
EvE is boring unless your willing to gank or have a ton of SP and a ton of ISK. 250 mill for me is a week or 2 worth of work, assuming i can stand to even log in, Eve is boring as **** solo, and group things require insane isk and SP. Want to run incursions in a drake? You'll get told to **** off every time. Want to run sleeper sites? buy yourself a 2 bill tengu with deadspace mods. Another thing is skills, no matter how much I have someone is gaurenteed to have more. Anything you can do to make good isk requires lots of isk and lots of SP to do.


You desperately, desperately need to find yourself a decent corp.

I am in one but i cant run Wh's without more SP and isk, and after missioning for 8 months I never want to again.
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
#283 - 2012-06-11 21:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Totalrx
Ranger 1 wrote:
SetrakDark wrote:
I am 100% serious when I say that CCP should delete this subforum. It is just a haven for the unfortunately mentally unbalanced and trolls trolling trolls. For new players it must be utterly demoralizing and extremely unappealing.

... and yet, if they can't take a little forum drama do they really have the mental fortitude to actually enjoy the harsh, cruel universe that awaits them....

Actually, I do completely understand your point. Often the EVE community is it's own worst enemy.



Very much so.

What's contained in GD is has a lot to do with why so many people never venture out into null sec and rarely get brave enough to cross into low sec.

Rule 1) Don't fly what you can't afford to replace

Rule 2) Join a Corp

Rule 3) Trust no one.

Rule 4) HTFU

We know what that all means, but to a relatively new player reading the banter about null sec, Goons, carebears, Hulkageddon, Tengugeddon, etc etc how are they supposed to know what's forum drama and what is not?
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#284 - 2012-06-11 21:22:32 UTC
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
EvE is boring unless your willing to gank or have a ton of SP and a ton of ISK. 250 mill for me is a week or 2 worth of work, assuming i can stand to even log in, Eve is boring as **** solo, and group things require insane isk and SP. Want to run incursions in a drake? You'll get told to **** off every time. Want to run sleeper sites? buy yourself a 2 bill tengu with deadspace mods. Another thing is skills, no matter how much I have someone is gaurenteed to have more. Anything you can do to make good isk requires lots of isk and lots of SP to do.


Your unfortunate experience is not representative of the game as a whole, quite to opposite actually. Don't speak as if it is.
Izziee
University of Izziee
#285 - 2012-06-11 21:24:04 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.




Most "true" gamers, at least the ones you want for eve anyway, already know about it or have even tried it. Eve an old game, and it's well known regardless. It might have some bad stigma for some who tried it years ago but haven't followed the changes, but anyway, there isn't much you can do anymore.

Also, as far as MMO's goes, I'd say huge portion know about eve, and the rest aren't interested in pay to play.

TLDR?

it's a very old game, it does surprisingly well for its age, I can only think of WoW being the only other well known LONG term MMO.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#286 - 2012-06-11 21:31:09 UTC
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
EvE is boring unless your willing to gank or have a ton of SP and a ton of ISK. 250 mill for me is a week or 2 worth of work, assuming i can stand to even log in, Eve is boring as **** solo, and group things require insane isk and SP. Want to run incursions in a drake? You'll get told to **** off every time. Want to run sleeper sites? buy yourself a 2 bill tengu with deadspace mods. Another thing is skills, no matter how much I have someone is gaurenteed to have more. Anything you can do to make good isk requires lots of isk and lots of SP to do.


You desperately, desperately need to find yourself a decent corp.

I am in one but i cant run Wh's without more SP and isk, and after missioning for 8 months I never want to again.


Jayrendo, you can easily run most WH systems with a properly fit Drake if you do so with a handful of halfway decent pilots that know how to use even the most rudimentary teamwork.

If you want to run the toughest ones solo, then yeah, that's going to take quite a bit more money and effort.

As for never catching up, you do realize that if you focus your training you can already fly many ships just as effectively (skill point wise) at 8 months as I can after 9 years. Granted, I can fly a vast array of ships compared to you, but I can only fly one at a time my friend.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#287 - 2012-06-11 21:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Totalrx wrote:
Over the past month, I have sent out 4 invites to four people who do not play subscription MMO's.

Out of those four invites, only one person is going to try and stick with it.

There's a few reasons for this:

1) as stated many times over, Eve isn't for everyone. One of the people just didn't get into it.

2) The other two players made the mistake of coming to this forum before activating their account and reading through the first two pages of drama-filled dribble. How Eve is dying, there's nothing to do, PVP should be mandatory, carebears should die, etc etc etc

They didn't activate the account afterwards. To read these forums, a new player has to wonder if their time and $14.95 a month are really worth it?

50% of the players I invited thought "No"

Sadly, I can understand where they are coming from. There are good arguments made in GD on how Eve seems to be stuck and how it would benefit Eve is people played a certain way or avoided certain play styles. At the same time, the pointing out that one can be podded for playing how they want in the Sandbox is a deterrent for many new players. They also get the feeling that it's not worth the risk of flying the ship they worked so hard to get until they have enough ISK to buy 2-3 more of them. Additionally, I got asked what good is playing a game where one corp seems to make the rules for the game instead of the developers.

My biggest piece of advice to a new player is "Don't read the General Discussion forum until you've been playing at least a year."

Sadly, I did not think to tell that to the two people who decided not to subscribe to a paying account.


Sadly EvE is really not for everyone. The very fact they told you "what good is playing a game where one corp seems to make the rules for the game instead of the developers" means they are hamstrung in the theme park "developers prepare a canned path and balance" mentality.

I will reveal a notion that probably got lost in the years: EvE is from an era when players were few and dedicated, the "pre WoW" generation. Many 1998-2003 MMOs took froom text MUDs, some of which make EvE look like an easy mode, shallow Hello Kitty Online. I am not joking. Permanent death / XP loss + force reincarnation, permanent stat losses, self crumbling structures, ugly diseases were a given any player could have to endure.

EvE and other MMOs are sons of those archetypes, and these archetypes don't attract the masses.
I distinctly recall when a great MMO launch meant 35k subs!

Then Blizzard invented easy to install, reliable, polished, low computer requirements games that catered to the millions and they made bank.

I still recall the two big schools of thought: Total Annihilation vs Starcraft, pure Chris Taylor technological genius vs the game that invaded unthinkable places (i.e. Korean cafes) with an unprecedented sales success.

Then WoW came, it took all the "sell millions of copies" concepts from their other games and it launched with about 500k subs. Now we know how it went.

But the dicothomy, it did not go. The EvE and "archaic kind" of MMO players are still the same early 2000 niche. The millions of WoW players are just another generation, another mindset, another and separated customer base grown from outside of the old type MMOs one. Bar few players who could adapt to both, there's no sharing.

Basically you don't "grow" EvE players off the others, EvE cannot steal players that come from another branch with a different foundation mindset.

Your friends are of the "other kind", they just won't fit in the EvE mindset.

This is also why old players retention is so important for EvE. The likeminded players pool is small and shrinking.


Barring some new and moronic CCP action (they are always trying, just look at this StupidUI), EvE will not die by itself. Its playerbase turnover might just leave it emptier and emptier till it's a desert.
George Whitebread
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2012-06-11 21:56:05 UTC
Ooops! Wrong thread. I thought your were discussing hemorrhoids.

"I say what I like, and I like what I bloody well say" - George Whitebread

Barbelo Valentinian
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#289 - 2012-06-11 22:50:13 UTC
I dunno, I'm an intermittent subscriber since 2007 (I actually remember when Liang Nuren was a noob Lol ), and even at that time the game was quite a bit different in the complexion of its playerbase.

I think the problem is that CCP has created a monster. I mean, originally, the game was multiplayer Elite, the people who joined it were into science fiction, and the FFA aspect of it was just to give it hyper-realism.

In terms of rules, the game originally was "colder" and "harsher" than it is now, and yet people generally were more ... I dunno, more immersed in the virtual world somehow, more roleplay-lite. Whereas nowadays, everyone seems to be just themselves, playing a game and metagame, and mostly getting their kicks out of ruining someone else's day.

The idea in the early days wasn't that the gameplay should consist solely of ganking, griefing and scamming - it's just that those were allowed by the game rules, because the devs wanted the game to be as "realistic" as possible.

In those days, the game itself was, "here's this fantastic imaginary s-f universe, now go make your way in it."

But nobody cares about that stuff anymore. It seems that many players nowadays just want a quick pew-pew game where they can be assholes with impunity.

I think it's the type of player who's been attracted to EVE by the hullaballo generated by the media in terms of "you can be an ******* in this game" that's become the dominant voice - those are the people who have lowered the tone of the neighbourhood. Plus now it's virtually a P2W game anyway - which attracts more assholes. Yet CCP is now stuck with them.

The sad thing is, I don't know how CCP could have done anything different really. Unfortunately, if you have "realistic" rules in a game environment where identity isn't trackable, everyone eventually becomes and *******, and the very idea of a "virtual world" goes down the plughole.

(I should note that above I'm drawing the most pessimistic picture I can - in some ways it's not so bad, and I don't think EVE is going anywhere anytime soon. It's just sad to think what EVE was like in its early days, and how it's changed to become "you can be an asshat here"-land.)
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2012-06-11 23:10:42 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
And worst thing is that they will keep feeding us with new ships and stupid new skills, thus increasing cap between new and old players even more, instead of fixing an CORE game mechanics to encourage more players.

Death penalty is probably the main thing that scares most players off the game.

Decrease death penalty = more players comes

Increase death penalty = more players leaves

Its THAT easy.

No they're not.

"Death" in Eve is actually one of the many things that kept me playing the game from the very beginning. Unlike other MMOs, death in Eve has a meaning. You don't just respawn somewhere and go right back up like nothing happened. I know a lot of people who took pride on being an Eve player, due to this very reason. Pvp in other MMOs are just childsplay, and this very thing is what made some people kept playing.

Even from a new player perspective, i disagree with you. I've seen and even personally 'lure' several people to play Eve and even during their tutorial stages, none, and i mean, literally not a single one of them left when i told them about 'death in Eve' and what should they expect when they undock. Risk and effort are two things that gives a meaning to something, you took that away, then aside from spaceships and themepark sandbox, there's nothing else that Eve has.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave

Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
#291 - 2012-06-11 23:11:05 UTC
Eve would be a fantastic game if everybody involved had honor. Unfortunately, they do not. The post earlier in this thread from the veteran who talked about how the playerbase worked for the betterment of the game is sad, only because of how far from that the community is today. You have people like Mittani and his cadre of boot-licking goonies who not-so-secretly hope they can spur some poor sap into killing himself in distress. These people are not good people. Yet they dominate the Eve landscape. And CCP allows this, which isn't a bad thing because we all want Eve to be a scary and dangerous place and if CCP put measures in to prevent the activities of these lost souls, it would detract from what the rest of us want in Eve. So, in effect, the bad guys would win by making the game less fun for all. It's just too bad that MMO gamers aren't what they used to be, both in the instant-gratification sense and the desire to grief rather than enjoy a game with many other like-minded people.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#292 - 2012-06-11 23:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Abannan wrote:
The issue I've always seemed to have trying to get my friends into eve is trying to explain to them how long they have to wait before they can do certain things, and do them well. I know its possible to have a ok-fitted rifter in a matter of days, (t1 guns, a small tank etc), but they fit it up, go into lowsec, and get popped by anything that gets on grid with them, I know when that happened to me it was demoralising but thats EvE, and although the newer players need to learn that sooner or later, it's not good for new player retention.

TL;DR, newer players feel the skill queues take too long to do anything

(before you all flame me, I don't want eve to be easier for new players and I'm completly against safe areas of highsec or instant gratification of getting good ships really quickly)


I have to admit that I've seen this complaint used often, unfortunetly I never actually see it come from someone that just started the game or is thinking about trying it.

No generalizing, no exagerasion, I literally see this very comment being made by people that have BEEN playing the game. I don't even see people complaining about this in the starter corp chat. Unfortunetly I do see some vets on an alt, in the newbie corp saying this, and it's ****.

I don't care what ******* game you play. You're not jumping into it and going to pvp with the big guys from the get go unless the game is deisnged to do that, and MMO's generally aren't. People who play MMO's and actually think rationaly understand this.


Spreadsheets in space
FFA PvP
I'm a spaceship
Learning curve

Those are the reasons I see time and time again for why people don't get into EVE.


Instead of telling your friends that it'll take forever to do something in EVE, tell them that it's like any other MMO, you're gonna need to play for a few months if you want to do end game equivelant pvp. Then maybe they might be a little more receptive to the fact that, like every other mmo, you can't do everything right away.

If you're reenforcing negativety you can only expect negativety. If you don't explain it in a negative way then they're more likely to come away with a more possitve outlook.

But then I made a living selling **** that people didn't need or want to people that didn't need or want the **** I was selling.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#293 - 2012-06-11 23:41:35 UTC
People coming to this game expecting Halo or WoW or Hello Kitty Online need to learn quickly the difference between a kid's tricycle and an SUV. Unable or unwilling to think? See ya.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#294 - 2012-06-11 23:42:35 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
People coming to this game expecting Halo or WoW or Hello Kitty Online need to learn quickly the difference between a kid's tricycle and an SUV. Unable or unwilling to think? See ya.


I agree.

This game does a great job filtering out the themepark crowd, although based on the whine about getting suicide ganked I think CCP needs to improve that filter.

Things are only impossible until they are not.

Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#295 - 2012-06-11 23:53:47 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.



God I really wish it were possible to downvote posts into the gutter.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.

Powers Sa
#296 - 2012-06-12 01:00:21 UTC
Shea Valerien wrote:
It's just too bad that MMO gamers aren't what they used to be, both in the instant-gratification sense and the desire to grief rather than enjoy a game with many other like-minded people.

Its a good thing we do enjoy a game with 28000 like-minded people in the CFC.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#297 - 2012-06-12 01:03:58 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
Shea Valerien wrote:
It's just too bad that MMO gamers aren't what they used to be, both in the instant-gratification sense and the desire to grief rather than enjoy a game with many other like-minded people.

Its a good thing we do enjoy a game with 28000 like-minded people in the CFC.


No, no. You misunderstood.

When he said "like-minded" he meant, only people who like what I like.


And obviously he's not a hypocrit.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2012-06-12 01:38:46 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
As a (bitter?) old vet, let me relate my early days of being a newbie...



Aura was borderline indifferent towards new players. "Here is your rookie ship." "Undock using the yellow arrow keys in the lower left hand corner." "Target the station but do not shoot at it." "Warp out to an asteroid belt and target an asteroid." "Let the mining laser run until you collect some rock." "Return to station." And then it was a kick in the ass and told to go make my own destiny in this grand universe. No further hand holding was offered.



SO MUCH NOSTALGIA, i remember having acceleration gates for "rats" outside cistuvaert station.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#299 - 2012-06-12 01:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Most new players not interesting in FW, nullsec, PvP - they want sci-fi hi-sec carebear gameplay which is limited (for new players without deep knowledge) to hulkageddoned mining, repetitive missions, various noob-targeted scams-griefers-pirates, sitting in captain jail cell. I wouldn't expect player hemorrhaging will stop during next couple of years because CCP definitely doesn't have any plans to expand hi-sec / carebear gameplay after monoclegeddon.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2012-06-12 02:41:07 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
CCP please do something positive about this.

You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

What is the primary reason new players to EvE are leaving ?
Some of it has to do with EvE being difficult to get into, but we know this has been addressed as best as possible with the new player training lessons.

What else is causing the slow but constant haemorrhage of new players, CCP ?

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

I'm sure the numbers will look healthier starting around 28th of this month when Japanese players finally get to play on Tranquility, but this will be a short growth-spurt and then we're back to where we are now.

I love EvE and the people in it. I would love to see it grow to 60, 70, 80K players a night.

Constructive comments welcome.
Asinine comments - you know where the door is and that it leads nowhere.



Quality is more important than Quantity.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

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