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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2011-09-11 13:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Officer Spawn wrote:
Since it's all NDA and we'll never know until after CCP and EVE are history we're all free to speculate. This is about resource allocation and there are three possibilities as I can think of:

-Arnar Says No ! He tells the CSM there will be no changes in CCP policy. This is kind of unlikely as the CSM is presenting this Skype talk like a Big Deal and even with all their love of trolling and attention prostitutionization they wouldn't have publicized the fact that they were told to take a hike.

-Arnar says Light At The End Of The Tunnel. "Other projects will soon enter a stage where less resources are required which will be allocated to EVE FiS". Of course nothing is certain and no firm dates are given and in a few months it may turn out that the other core projects got delayed and no extra resources are actually reassigned. This would be a typical CCP move, promise something in the future and make it seem like they are giving into CSM pressure.

-Arnar Surrender ! Release date on DUST and WoD are pushed back X months/years and resources are shifted to EVE. This would be a very valid use of the NDA as release dates are very important bits of information. But this would require some Icelandic alpha males to admit they were wrong which is extremely unlikely.

you missed the most likely option:

-Arnar is the wrong person to talk to. Maybe he has free reign over EVE development but - at least judging from his job title - he simply does not have the power to reallocate resources from DUST, WoD or Carbon development to his own domain.
pussnheels
Viziam
#262 - 2011-09-11 14:19:07 UTC
Well thanks for the update ; but wouldn"t it be better they fix the bugs that came with the latest patch
I will rarely complain about the bugs that are ingame , but ever since the last patch it is a bum ......UUMM ridicelous

And those complaining about the NDA ..be glad it is there or do you really want mittani or what ever his ingame name is and his goons take over EVE

UMY i really despise those goons

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#263 - 2011-09-11 14:41:27 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Neftaran wrote:
I truly do not see why do you space politicians even bother posting this type of information. It's getting so repetitive and pointless. You wave your saber around to garner some attention.. CCP lets things gestate for a few days and then low and behold it's time for a meeting. You have your meeting then regurgitate the same responses we've been hearing for years. Few months from now we will get some more space drama and the never ending spin cycle of b.s. will start over again.

Player representation is nothing more than an illusion.


Great, don't vote in CSM7, and I'll keep all this power and influence to myself. No big!



The only influence you have is how to setup your bots.

And yes I know who you are and not impressed at all.


CCP managed to **** off enough people by them self what are you going to do threaten that all goons leave I wish they did.

I actually hope that eve will go down to 13000 player count so CCP wakes up.

Money is only thing they look at and if you naively think you have any influence there well then you are really suffering from some illusion of greatness.
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#264 - 2011-09-11 14:45:32 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


[...] morons. [...]useless desperate attention whores.[...]




I qualify for both - can I be CSM chairman?


You got my vote IF only for the entertainment value.
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#265 - 2011-09-11 14:50:51 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Headerman wrote:




CCP Manifest, if i may be so bold...

tl;dr, CCP is a business. And as far as businesses go, they number one business goal is to stay in business. That is best done by having great products people are wanting to buy


anyone else getting the feeling this is a troll by CCP AND the CSM? lol
[/quote]

Agreed

The only reason CCP is still in business it created a cabal of Eve clinically addicted Junkies that will allow them to do anyhitng as long they get their fit.

Now that is a part of the time based skill progression If you have invested so much real time int your pilot you have much higher tolerance level then in the classic grind based games.

Marlakh
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2011-09-11 14:50:58 UTC
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#267 - 2011-09-11 15:03:37 UTC
cyllan anassan wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Vicar2008 wrote:
No offense I like where this is going, but its just another bone being thrown to us without actually anything concrete being said. Check out the last Dev blogs, plenty of words, no real Comming up content with changes/number crunching etc.


It's not a bone being thrown. Meetings like this one, when they reach their conclusion, take the form of a devblog and CSM posts. I believed it important for you to know that discussion is underway to address the problems, even if I can't disclose in what way yet.




i never met a company that cant talk about improvements in their product.

if anything when a company is improving the product they broadcast it to the seven winds.


NDA? what is CCP doing,

patenting a new lifeform?


what a load of BS


In classic purchase based model it it common you do not want to announce new product too soon so they still buy the current one,

In the CCP subscription / Gold microtransaction hybrid whatever it is model the only thing I see it could hurt the if they announced that they are working on a super dooper DOUBLE ELITE EAGLE monocle. The sales of the current monocles would be hurt by that but the prescriptions should be in theory helped by advance info [if it is delivered upon]
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#268 - 2011-09-11 15:53:29 UTC
I have a simple question. If the subject of the NDA'd meeting is something that the vast majority of players support, something that pertains to EVE aka FiS, and if that something is coming soon(tm) aka the winter "expansion", why doesn't CCP simply tell the community something along the following:

"Look, new spaceships content:

[Content]

We do good?"

In my humble opinion, if your consumer base is rioting and you have something they've been demanding ( for months ) that will appease them, then it might be a good idea to show them to get them to calm down, put the Molotov cocktails down, and chill out. Maybe.

Then again, I don't have much experience with PR matters, so maybe I'm completely wrong here.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#269 - 2011-09-11 16:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I have a simple question. If the subject of the NDA'd meeting is something that the vast majority of players support, something that pertains to EVE aka FiS, and if that something is coming soon(tm) aka the winter "expansion", why doesn't CCP simply tell the community something along the following:

"Look, new spaceships content:

[Content]

We do good?"

In my humble opinion, if your consumer base is rioting and you have something they've been demanding ( for months ) that will appease them, then it might be a good idea to show them to get them to calm down, put the Molotov cocktails down, and chill out. Maybe.

Then again, I don't have much experience with PR matters, so maybe I'm completely wrong here.

If I had to speculate I would say it's because Zulupark knows that the resources allocated isn't enough to do anything substantial to change the direction FiS is heading. So right now he's talking to the people holding the checkbook and using the CSM approval as leverage to lobby for more resources.
mkint
#270 - 2011-09-11 17:46:14 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
Well thanks for the update ; but wouldn"t it be better they fix the bugs that came with the latest patch
I will rarely complain about the bugs that are ingame , but ever since the last patch it is a bum ......UUMM ridicelous

And those complaining about the NDA ..be glad it is there or do you really want mittani or what ever his ingame name is and his goons take over EVE

UMY i really despise those goons


Lol, mittens is a turd burgler. What makes you think he hasn't already told large swathes of the goons? He likes to **** off in front of whoever he can, except maybe a mirror (would be a sad sad day if he actually saw himself.) Besides, the number one priority of most of the CSM is to perpetuate their RMT empires. How do you think Mittens can afford to be "retired"? Because his years (or should that be singular?) of experience as a well established lawyer? At age 25ish? Like hell.

Oh, and Hilmar still needs to be fired. G*d f*cking d*mn, that guy sucks.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#271 - 2011-09-11 18:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
The Mittani wrote:
It's also funny that there are idiots who think that the CSM has any choice as to what is NDA'd and what isn't; if it was up to us, we'd tell you what the meeting was about. But in this case it's Zulu's decision. vOv

This is as obnoxious as it is arrogant.

If you can't see the need to keep significant game changes under wraps so everyone has an equal shot at making the best of them, than you are a fool.

I happen to think you know better, and that this statement is BS just to placate players.

Way to kick a necessary but unpopular measure exclusively into CCP's court.

Your either a little kid or a liar... maybe both. In any event, statements like yours severely undermine the credibility of the CSM.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Pax Infinitas
Adamant Heavy Manufacturing
#272 - 2011-09-11 18:14:54 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons.

If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores.

If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less.

Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA.

I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.


No, it's "damned if you communicate in a ****-poor manner and damned if you don't communicate at all."

Do you honestly think an update of, "We talked, can't say anything. We'll try and talk at some point in the future and at some point let you know," is an any way an acceptable communication? Especially in light of the fact that it took almost 3 ******* months to get minutes out of the emergency summit?

I understand that you are hamstrung by the NDA. I further understand that CCP is hard to negotiate with. I also understand that CCP is epic in dragging its feet in ways that would make most government bureaucracy stare in awe. I get it, I really do.

Here is the reality: You had a meeting that in some way ended up becoming a meeting to plan a meeting. I've sat through dozens of those this year. I know nothing of substance gets settled in those meetings. I know it can be detrimental to discuss the substance of said meetings with larger audiences before anything has been settled. But to come out of such a meeting without a decent roadmap regarding how you're going to proceed? That's kind of the point of the meeting!

Here's how the announcement should have been written:

FakeAnnouncement wrote:
Hey guys, just wanted to give you a heads-up that we had a meeting with Zulu last night about all of the controversy lately. I can't go into specifics of the meeting but here's what you can expect over the next few weeks. Next week we'll be meeting with the appropriate stakeholders at CCP regarding their commitment to FiS content. We hope to get the major issues settled in that meeting. Assuming we do, Zulu's going to hit you with a devblog by the end of the following week. If we don't get the major issues resolved, I'll give you a further update to let you know when you can expect to hear something more substantive. As these issues relate to CCP's corporate strategy, there won't be minutes from either meeting. In the end, regardless of how everything is settled, we'll be able to give you a concrete answer about CCP's commitment to EVE and FiS within the next few weeks. It may not be the answer everyone is looking for, but we'll have an answer one way or another.

If you have any questions I'll try to answer them as best as I can, but again this is CCP's confidental corporate strategy stuff and I probably won't be able to give you the answer you want yet.


Do you understand the difference between the CSM's announcement and what I wrote above? One contains a commitment to future action and communication as well as a reasonable timeline for it. It also commits to attempting to answer questions in the interim while giving fair warning that some questions can't be answered. The other does neither of those.

If the CSM can't get CCP to agree to and commit to something like what was written above then either the CSM in its current incarnation has failed or the CSM as a concept has failed.

And finally, YES, you absolutely should keep quiet if you can't provide something like what is written above. To corrupt a quote from a great US President and politician (kinda like you guys are EVE politicians) and apply it to the current situation, "It is better to remain silent and be thought useless than to speak out and remove all doubt."

/rage
Zirise
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2011-09-11 18:28:36 UTC
Your concerns are pretty funny; The Mittani will most likely be elected for CSM 7 if he runs, I think most people find he's doing an awesome job at holding CCP's feet to the fire.

But carry on failing at waging political forum wars making yourself look bad, its fun to watch. Lol
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#274 - 2011-09-11 18:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Zirise wrote:
Your concerns are pretty funny; The Mittani will most likely be elected for CSM 7 if he runs, I think most people find he's doing an awesome job at holding CCP's feet to the fire.

But carry on failing at waging political forum wars making yourself look bad, its fun to watch. Lol

I don't care how I "look". I just want to see EvE get better.

In my mind a good CSM representative has the mind of a software engineer and the heart of a sci-fi dreamer. Mitt seems to simply be an alliance type that could generate a lot of thoughtless support. I have no doubt he'll be re-elected, should he be inclined to run again. ...but if you are unable to 'step out of your pod' to discuss game design I think you're going to be pretty inefficient in generating constructive action. I think the failure to differentiate what makes a good alliance head in-game and what makes a great game designer is problematic, and my opinion of the mit quote above reflects that. There's no political motivation here. I have never really cared about 'game politics'... it's not my game.

If Mit even reads it I would hope he would reflect on it... because he is in a position to effect positive change. I'm not looking for a response... just consideration. However, I suspect he'll just react if anything at all.... but that is a rough call since all I know about him is what he's written about the CSM. Roll playing is for in-game. I think the CSM would do well to keep RP there... It's an observation. My 2 isk.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#275 - 2011-09-11 19:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Double post - plz remove

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#276 - 2011-09-11 20:04:47 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons.

If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores.

If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less.

Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA.

I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.


This is indeed a thorny political - and indeed philosophical problem

My advice would be to resolve the trilemma by always following my advice. Luckily, this is to give us as much information as you can at each discreet stage of the process. I say "luckily" because this is exactly what you have done here.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#277 - 2011-09-11 20:05:13 UTC
EDIT: Well I see one much valued feature from the old EVE forums was carried over at least.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maimakterion
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#278 - 2011-09-11 20:52:30 UTC
Gogela wrote:

In my mind a good CSM representative has the mind of a software engineer and the heart of a sci-fi dreamer. Mitt seems to simply be an alliance type that could generate a lot of thoughtless support.


What are you smoking? Why would a CSM rep need either one of those when their job is to bring their constituent's concerns up to CCP?

Gogela wrote:

I think the failure to differentiate what makes a good alliance head in-game and what makes a great game designer is problematic


When did you get it in your head that The Mittani is in charge of EVE's developers? At this point I'm going to go with you're making stuff up as you go.

Gogela wrote:
Roll playing is for in-game. I think the CSM would do well to keep RP there... It's an observation. My 2 isk.


If you think Goons are roleplaying, you are beyond help. Please go back to camping your lowsec gate and never post again.
BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
#279 - 2011-09-11 20:56:23 UTC
Zirise wrote:
Your concerns are pretty funny; The Mittani will most likely be elected for CSM 7 if he runs, I think most people find he's doing an awesome job at holding CCP's feet to the fire.

But carry on failing at waging political forum wars making yourself look bad, its fun to watch. Lol


Spoken like a true Goon pet!

Yes, it would be SOOOOOOO difficult for Mittens to get another few thousand votes Roll

So who is TEST putting up since White Tree went to another Goon pet alliance?...Or should I say started a new Goon pet alliance

Mine smart. Mine safe. Purchase your mining permit today...... www.minerbumping.com
Zensige
B00sh Industries
#280 - 2011-09-11 21:01:20 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Stay tuned...

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6


Don't bother posting until you have something worth while to read, IE non-NDA.