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Ships & Modules

 
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Recent changes to ships with Ship Maintenance Arrays

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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#81 - 2011-09-11 21:05:16 UTC
I'm uncertain as to how CCP can justify this alteration of a player's ship.

Stations and gates do not allow usage for one minute after aggression and that is acceptable because it is not owned by the player. There is no logical reason that CONCORD or similar forces would be able to disable the abilities (read: not modules) of a player-owned ship and it is inconsistent with the one minute aggression timer on stations and gates.

To complicate matters even further, you're taking ship functionality out of the hands of the player and punishing them for inventive uses of ship types and capability.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#82 - 2011-09-11 21:11:55 UTC
Zavulon Sukkot wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Rasz Lin wrote:
sooo swapping ship in orca doesnt work, but orca can still eject ship, pi9lot swaps in space, orca scoops? .. niiiice CCP, some quality work there


Ejecting from a ship starts a session timer. You aren't getting into a new one fast enough to keep the target around if you have to
eject and have the orca scoop.


Thank you for demonstrating your complete lack of knowledge in boarding mechanics. Please feel free to PM any member of Suddenly Ninjas, or any of our other member corporations' personnel for a personal demonstration of how aggression and timer mechanics work.


Ok I get it. As it stood, it was reliable, worked for everyone. Now its unreliable and ping/multibox sensitive (as with my australian ping, I would necessarily leave unnattended aggressed ships in space such that the opponent could already have boarded it before I even see it on my orca alt), but it requires the orca pilot to take an action, which is in line with the standard highsec aggression model.

The last part is that the scoop should cause the orca to give aggression, but I'm presuming that does not occur.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#83 - 2011-09-11 23:36:37 UTC
Well, regardless of how the ship swap is executed, you still lose lock for a short period when you swap ships and reacquire the target lock, which the targeted person can use to save his precious ship. Am i right?

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
grumpyguts1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2011-09-12 00:09:12 UTC
This change sucks.. I used to switch out my hulks the moment they were targeted for a suicide gank.... If CCP doesn't want anyone to mine in HS.. just take the roids away...
Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
#85 - 2011-09-12 01:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zavulon Sukkot
Aessaya wrote:
Well, regardless of how the ship swap is executed, you still lose lock for a short period when you swap ships and reacquire the target lock, which the targeted person can use to save his precious ship. Am i right?



This has always been true. We lose a kill while trying to extract revenge once in awhile because not everyone has the same amount of practice bumping people off alignment/timing the ship board. Sometimes lag/bad timing luck can screw you there too. It has never been a 100% method.

This was especially comical in the times when orcas could offline everything on ships in the SMA/SMB, and you'd swap to a ship with everything offlined.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#86 - 2011-09-12 02:00:00 UTC
Zavulon Sukkot wrote:
<...>

This was especially comical in the times when orcas could offline everything on ships in the SMA/SMB, and you'd swap to a ship with everything offlined.

This actually happens to me randomly with my carrier's SMA, and i don't remember doing anything special. Since i can't reproduce it i don't petition it, yet ;)

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
#87 - 2011-09-12 02:50:40 UTC
Aessaya wrote:
Zavulon Sukkot wrote:
<...>

This was especially comical in the times when orcas could offline everything on ships in the SMA/SMB, and you'd swap to a ship with everything offlined.

This actually happens to me randomly with my carrier's SMA, and i don't remember doing anything special. Since i can't reproduce it i don't petition it, yet ;)


It may have been fixed, but it was generally triggered by logging out in space with the SMA-bearing ship.
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#88 - 2011-09-12 03:43:45 UTC
Confirming the Orca still "offlines" mods from time-to-time when you swap ships, but you know what, so do stations these days (frequently in fact it seems).

Just to sum up, yeah, Ninja Orcas are broked naow, please to be blasting our frigates in utter safety again. That is all. Pirate

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts
mitch3190
NZRAF
NZAU Alliance
#89 - 2011-09-12 04:31:43 UTC
I have a question

How dose it work? 1 or 2?

1. You flip a cap and then can not swap ships for 15mins?
OR
2. You shoot at someone and you can not swap ships for 1min? (like a station/gate)

If it is not 2, then why not? People use this tactic all the time in low-sec with carriers/orcas on station (they camp and as soon as they get in trouble they scoop there ships and dock) so this fix dose not actually fix the exploit itself, it only make high-sec carebears stop crying.

This fix would be a lot fairer/make more sense if it was like a station/gate with a 1min timer on combat aggression. So if you want to save/change your ship when fighting you have to deagress for 1min and then change and if the person you are shooting at is still there bad luck on him, to deagress for 1min you have to drop scram etc on him and he can just warp away.

Just my thoughts.
Traffic Warden
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
#90 - 2011-09-12 10:14:37 UTC
Would have been nice to see it in the patch notes, but there you go. I enjoy getting my Ninja on too much for this to really cause that much annoyance.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2011-09-12 10:57:04 UTC
while im against CCP nerfing the sandbox, if they are going to **** with ship swapping for whatever ******** reasons, change it so you cannot re-dock in a station while aggressed as well, as that fits the stupid reasoning you give for the Orca change.

Lets see you try and maintain consitency with your decisions please

if you dont make this Orca change apply to all ships in all sec systems then it just shows you up as catering to whiny carebears that clog up your petitions inbox because of their lack of understatnding on how the game works

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#92 - 2011-09-12 11:03:42 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
lolz, people might actually have to fight the fight they pick now in highsec.


This Now fix the station and neutral RR


Choco Case
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2011-09-12 11:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Choco Case
I consider myself a carebear but I honestly think it is a shame that such inventive gameplay got nerfed. Mission runners (edit: or anyone) should not be pampered, they should learn the tricks and adapt.

"EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world; it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world."

This is what makes the game fascinating, what happened to this statement?
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2011-09-12 11:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Oops.... neurons misfired - just ignore this.
Aamrr
#95 - 2011-09-12 12:31:19 UTC
I still don't see why you didn't go with the simpler solution:

When a pilot with an aggression timer attempts to access the orca's ship hangar, the Orca pilot should receive a prompt warning them that they will receive aggression for assisting if this action is allowed. If they allow the pilot to access the hangar, slap the Orca pilot with the aggression as well.

Not really any different than applying remote reps, tbh.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#96 - 2011-09-12 15:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Tarsas Phage wrote:


It's not an abuse if the game lets you do it.



It's not a crime if there are no laws against it!

Famous last words used throughout history.


Just because there are no laws explicitly worded against me creating a super race of radioactive gerbils in an attempt to take over the world does not mean I will avoid being prosecuted for unleashing an army of tiny, furry, and extremely violent animals on the countryside.

CCP did not intend for the Orca to be used as a way to circumvent aggression mechanics and CONCORD in high security space and they finally made a few tweaks towards preventing just that.

You really do not understand this ^ ?

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#97 - 2011-09-12 19:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Mendolus wrote:


CCP did not intend for the Orca to be used as a way to circumvent aggression mechanics and CONCORD in high security space and they finally made a few tweaks towards preventing just that.

You really do not understand this ^ ?


Explain to me: How does the Orca allow one to 'circumvent CONCORD' in high sec space? How does this 'tweak' stop a player from avoiding CONCORD? Your statement makes me think you have a superficial understanding of the issue.

You think the Orca was intended merely to be massive jet can for miners - or an unscannable high EHP transport for traders?

Do you think it was intended for people to move cargo around in Orcas without anyone being able to know what is carried within? Cargo scanning mods don't work for some reason. Further, items in the Orca's Corp hangars/SMB are destroyed 100% of the time, rather than having a 50% chance of dropping, as all other mods and items.

Seems odd that this Orca 'bug' hasn't been fixed, despite the recent 'gate customs' modification.

- Oh wait, that bug-fix would help suicide gankers....guess there is NO chance that will happen. Roll
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#98 - 2011-09-12 20:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
I understand the situation just fine, it is my laziness in corroborating my terminology that suffers.

Frankly I give a flying rat's arse about it to begin with, I am just pointing out that CCP redressed the role of the Orca to better fit the intended uses they so desired for it.

Pretty simply really.

Arguing that they are somehow limiting us is trivial, they decide what roles and uses they want out of ships when they design them, if they do not like what we do beyond those means, they nerf or remove it, true story.

Some of you guys seem to be under the impression that this is YOUR game and not CCP's.

You are grossly mistaken.

Whatever changes they make, we get to live with, because this is THEIR game, and if they do not want outlaws having an easy time of using an Orca's SMA for their activities in high security space, they will nerf or remove the ability to do so, period.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#99 - 2011-09-12 21:36:52 UTC
This feels like a half-assed fix that will irritate both sides.

Either remove store and board functiosn while under agression in both high and low sec space as well as boarding while in over security space (outlaw, near outlaw in high sec) ,or leave it the hell alone.

There's a half dozen boarding/storing tricks people use Orcas for, such as putting juicy bait on a highsec gate in lowsec, then storing it and warping off after being scrambled. Or an outlaw grabbing a gank Brutix out in 1.0 sec space to nail that hulk who may not find it terribly strange to see a mining support ship in an asteroid belt.

Initially, this seemed like a great idea. I still think that on the whole it is a good change, but this could have been far more comprehensive or better thought through.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#100 - 2011-09-12 21:56:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Mendolus wrote:
I understand the situation just fine, it is my laziness in corroborating my terminology that suffers.

Whatever changes they make, we get to live with, because this is THEIR game, and if they do not want outlaws having an easy time of using an Orca's SMA for their activities in high security space, they will nerf or remove the ability to do so, period.


See, I still think you don't understand the issue. Lazy terminology again?

Outlaws (-5.0 to -10 characters) use Orcas for suicide-gank purposes, and this patch will do nothing to prevent their use of Orcas in such a way.

'Ninjas' by definition cannot be outlaws, as their activities are built around theft and encouraging mission runners to shoot at them. The aggressor is ALWAYS the Mission Bear. Orcas merely give a ninja the ability to 'upgrade' from a frigate to a battlecruiser, without having to leave the mission space (and lose warp jamming) to do it.

Take away the ability to effectively swap ships, the ninja is left with:

Leave mission space. (CNR docks up after initiating combat)
Trick CNR into shooting at a Hurricane. (good luck with that)
Kill CNR with a frigate. (impossible unless CNR is unbelievably fail-fit)

Now, CCP botched this tweak, and it doesn't REALLY prevent ship swapping. But its clearly a step in the 'coddle carebear' direction. (Kind of like how mission items now respawn rapidly, making stealing them pointless.)

Believe it or not, blowing up multi-million and billion ISK ships is good for the game. Without ninja activity, those PVE boats have as much chance in dying in a LVL 4.....as I do making the US National Hockey team.

And using ships outside their 'intended' role is a good thing in the sandbox. Some people set up their Hulks with NOS and other aggressive mods and attempt to kill canflippers. Made for a classic Eve Youtube vid.