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Mad inflation

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Endeavour Starfleet
#121 - 2012-03-12 18:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
Cant figure the issues? It says it RIGHT there. Incursions arent the problem.

You and the others screaming about incursions have lost. You have had a CCP member say without beating around the bush that Incursions aren't the big bad inflation monster I see so many posts make it out as. You know the fake numbers on incursion inflation y'all used to get the uninformed screaming in topics even tho they have never run an incursion.

Now instead of beating a dead horse how about trying to provide real solutions such as ways to encourage people to report the blue bots that ARE generating massive inflation.

Andski wrote:
Seriously any post by Endeavour Starfleet in threads about incursions should just be glossed over entirely because he doesn't want his risk-free 150m ISK/hour fountain touched


Wrong. I have never made that much in an Incursion and I never will. And I actually support small changes to vanguards to help remove the blitzing ability if assaults and HQs get a buff to payout. Even Ammzi seems to agree with the buff.

However that is because a single fleet type can blitz VGs without ever having to change fleet comp. Nothing to do with Inflation its due to want to them to start coming over to the community HQ fleets so we can have more of them and perhaps CCP will add more sites so things are a bit more interesting.

It is the fact that people with obvious agendas are pounding on Incursions when the real cause of out of control inflation is the massive amount bots are putting out.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#122 - 2012-03-12 19:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Cant figure the issues?
Yes. You are completely unable to provide any kind of argument beyond a classic appeal-to-authority fallacy, so either argue the issues being presented or shush.

Quote:
You have had a CCP member say without beating around the bush that Incursions aren't the big bad inflation monster I see so many posts make it out as. You know the fake numbers on incursion inflation y'all used to get the uninformed screaming in topics even tho they have never run an incursion.
No. We know the real numbers of incursion injection and how they were actually a whole lot larger than what the “but incursions are not doing anything” defenders were trying to claim.

The fact remains: incursions are a huge contributor to the ISK influx that is causing inflation, and this needs to be addressed.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-03-12 19:03:32 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Cant figure the issues? It says it RIGHT there. Incursions arent the problem.

You and the others screaming about incursions have lost. You have had a CCP member say without beating around the bush that Incursions aren't the big bad inflation monster I see so many posts make it out as. You know the fake numbers on incursion inflation y'all used to get the uninformed screaming in topics even tho they have never run an incursion.

Now instead of beating a dead horse how about trying to provide real solutions such as ways to encourage people to report the blue bots that ARE generating massive inflation.


You and the other high-sec welfare queens screaming about bots are on the losing side, actually. There was a MASSIVE ban wave on bots not long ago, and bots are banned regularly. Did you know that there are just as many, if not more bots running L4 missions than ratting in nullsec? Or are you naive enough to believe that every single NPC kill in mission hub systems is done by mission runners at their keys?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#124 - 2012-03-12 19:04:21 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

If you want to stop inflation, you need to let inflation run its course in some sectors of the economy, the systemic imbalances are what need fixing. Make the use of ISK faucets more expensive in terms of materials consumed, and do it in a way that doesn't freak out carebears and lead to mass whines by blowing up ships from overly aggressive NPCs. One of the best ways I have seen suggested is material consumption via active modules, and that may help balance out some of the PVP issues as well.

Activities that do not create ISK from the faucets need a bump, but this does not mean allow some player to create more trit or moon goo. Stop dropping loot that can be refined, (drone poo change is a good start, adding ISK to drones however is a half step back but an easy fix so understandable). Create consumable goods, increase the mineral requirements of ammo, add some PI into ship building, lower end moon goo, add fuel to ABs and MWDs, charges for shied boosters and armour reps, multi-tier T1 production like T2 uses, etc. Increase consumption of raw materials by means other than just ships blowing up.

This assumes that inflation is a bad thing. It is NOT. The materials sector is not the problem at all... you are ignoring a critical difference between material faucets and NPC payment faucets: Material price levels are set by player demand vs. supply. This relationship is balanced by the EvE economy and is not a problem at all. When mineral prices rise more miners find it profitable and worth while to mine. When mineral prices fall, fewer people mine. It's not the mineral supply that determines market price... it's labor supply!!! When EvE pays you directly in ISK, the market doesn't get a say and that is where the problems pop up.

Adunh Slavy wrote:
There is a significant portion of the player base that never goes out to PVP - this means they are not blowing things up. Eve's economy works because, in Eve, the Broken Window Fallacy, is not a fallacy, but that is true only up to a point. Not enough windows are breaking and all attempts at getting people to break more windows has failed, because for many individuals, not having windows broken on your own house is good thing. So ... if we can't get more windows to break, use more coal in the fire when making the glass.

This is incoherent. The problem is not anemic consumption but a market economy trying to balance itself against NPC payments/entitlements.

Adunh Slavy wrote:
The value in terms of time, of activities that are not sucking at the giant ISK tit, need to increase. The most useful sinks you could increase are material sinks.

I agree with the first sentence but not the last. Mining floats with the economy however, and does not represent "sucking at the great ISK tit" in my view.

Adunh Slavy wrote:
Slowing down how much ISK enters the economy, will not fix the imbalances. All it will do is concentrate wealth in the hands of those who already have massive reserves. Increasing this sink or that sink will only push people away from those activities and create further imbalances in the economy.

My response to this was earlier on and it's a bit lengthy to post again or even paraphrase.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Zircon Dasher
#125 - 2012-03-12 19:06:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-03-12 19:07:26 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Endeavour Starfleet
#127 - 2012-03-12 19:08:17 UTC
Real numbers Tippia? So your "real" numbers beat CCPs even tho they have a market expert with access to their data.

Epic and I mean epic fail!

And Andski I know about the bot ban wave but it is not enough by far. And it dosen't help that blues are "encouraged" not to report blue bots with promises of sharing and ship replacement programs.

And I have called time and again for hisec bots to be reported tho I highly doubt they beat the numbers in nullsec. Report them anyway because the more bots banned the better!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#128 - 2012-03-12 19:09:42 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Real numbers Tippia? So your "real" numbers beat CCPs even tho they have a market expert with access to their data.

Epic and I mean epic fail!

And Andski I know about the bot ban wave but it is not enough by far. And it dosen't help that blues are "encouraged" not to report blue bots with promises of sharing and ship replacement programs.

And I have called time and again for hisec bots to be reported tho I highly doubt they beat the numbers in nullsec. Report them anyway because the more bots banned the better!


How do you feel about risk/reward imbalances between high-sec incursions and nullsec anomalies?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2012-03-12 19:11:44 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Cant figure the issues? It says it RIGHT there. Incursions arent the problem.



No its doesn't. It says that incursions are not as big a flood of isk as others.

Incursions are however adding even more isk onto an already existing problem making it much much worse. This is what you simply do not seem to be able to grasp.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2012-03-12 19:12:56 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Real numbers Tippia? So your "real" numbers beat CCPs even tho they have a market expert with access to their data.
The market expert in question said that we do indeed have inflation.
Our real numbers are CCP's numbers.

Quote:
Epic and I mean epic fail!
Well, maybe if you researched your “facts,” you wouldn't fail so much.

Now, how about you argue the issues instead of piling fallacy upon fallacy?
Endeavour Starfleet
#131 - 2012-03-12 19:13:52 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


What it does show as well as even though low and nullsec incursions have a very high payout and can be done with low cost ships they don't get done. Why is that? They supposedly have higher pay than anoms? right?

Or is it that even with the free Cyno jams and ability to run with far less and make more still. They don't get run because its interfering with the real income source which in my opinion is mass scale botting.

Don't give me that crap about numbers online. VGs require a small amount of people.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-03-12 19:17:36 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
How about these nullbears start reporting blue bots before screaming about incursions?


Not possible right now. Like all political bodies, the CSM is corrupt on some levels. You have null representatives who punish their own members who report blue bots. RMT is big business when the convesion ratio is highly profitable in a country that has a broken economy or if you currently are not employed at all.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#133 - 2012-03-12 19:17:49 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.

If the mission reward numbers are any indication, it'll be ~50% highsec, ~50% nullsec, and a statistical-error-margin % in lowsec… P
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2012-03-12 19:19:23 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


What it does show as well as even though low and nullsec incursions have a very high payout and can be done with low cost ships they don't get done. Why is that? They supposedly have higher pay than anoms? right?

Or is it that even with the free Cyno jams and ability to run with far less and make more still. They don't get run because its interfering with the real income source which in my opinion is mass scale botting.

Don't give me that crap about numbers online. VGs require a small amount of people.


They dont get done because the people that run them do it in empire on alts whith far less risk involved.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#135 - 2012-03-12 19:20:04 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Misanth wrote:

* Promote PvP


Wrong. PvP is an isk faucet due to insurance. Try harder.


2/10

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Endeavour Starfleet
#136 - 2012-03-12 19:21:40 UTC
Andski wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Real numbers Tippia? So your "real" numbers beat CCPs even tho they have a market expert with access to their data.

Epic and I mean epic fail!

And Andski I know about the bot ban wave but it is not enough by far. And it dosen't help that blues are "encouraged" not to report blue bots with promises of sharing and ship replacement programs.

And I have called time and again for hisec bots to be reported tho I highly doubt they beat the numbers in nullsec. Report them anyway because the more bots banned the better!


How do you feel about risk/reward imbalances between high-sec incursions and nullsec anomalies?



That they are balanced minus the issue of AFK cloaking which I already proposed a solution for. With Blitzing VGs are on a bit of the high side but I am not too worried about that because I know eventually the blitzing part will be changed. HQs and As could use a buff tho.

You see I do not like the idea of bounty nerf. I think it will legitimately harm active players and yes greatly change the balance to favor hisec again. Instead I'm going to call as much as I can for action on botting.

You are a goon right? Rumor is the norm is "Don't $*&^ over other goons" Help prevent this madness by reporting the blue bots you see. As my opinion seems to mean little if they are bent on nerfing bounties eh?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2012-03-12 19:22:18 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
Misanth wrote:
* Promote PvP
Wrong. PvP is an isk faucet due to insurance. Try harder.
2/10
He's right, you know…

…but even so, promoting PvP is a good idea since it drives production, which helps counter-balance the production of ISK.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-03-12 19:23:07 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


What it does show as well as even though low and nullsec incursions have a very high payout and can be done with low cost ships they don't get done. Why is that? They supposedly have higher pay than anoms? right?


sorry to spoil your lil rant but GSF and TEST have been running lowsec incursions since the damn things were released, we even got the first revenant BPC drop! heh!

now here's a better question: why would anyone bother running incursions in lowsec (or, hahahaha nullsec), jumping around in carriers with PvE ships in the hold and scouting all over the place when they can fork over a few billion for a shiny faction BS and farm them in high-sec with significantly less risk of losing ships?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Endeavour Starfleet
#139 - 2012-03-12 19:25:49 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
How about these nullbears start reporting blue bots before screaming about incursions?


Not possible right now. Like all political bodies, the CSM is corrupt on some levels. You have null representatives who punish their own members who report blue bots. RMT is big business when the convesion ratio is highly profitable in a country that has a broken economy or if you currently are not employed at all.


I have never seen CCP out people who report bots. The report must be done and move on like you saw nothing.

Tho if you are talking about things like shutting down SRPs and other activities funded by blue bots in retaliation well here is the deal folks. Blue bots are NOT your friends. Would you rather they get banned while there is peace and you have time to build up resources legitimately or potentially have them banned when you need that SRP the most during war?

They are cheating you
They are cheating your corp and alliance
They are cheating everyone

Report them.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#140 - 2012-03-12 19:27:03 UTC
Andski wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.



The day when i have to agree with a goon is a sad day indeed.