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Dear Devs, thank you for spending 5 minutes to explain a game mechanic
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Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-03-21 19:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Hauling Hal
Darth Gustav wrote:
Hauling Hal wrote:
ECM should be a static (calculated the same way the %chance is now) effect to rate of fire depending on the mods fitted and the target's ships sensor strength. Stacking penalties or not need to be considered carefully. This way an ECM boat could jam out a number of small ships or 1 large ship.


Then suddenly Target Dampeners become totally OP.

Please try again; this time taking into consideration the entire game, not a problem in a box.



Oh, you mean the current effective countermeasure to ECM will be OP if you change ECM?

If solo, be quicker...
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#122 - 2012-03-21 19:53:34 UTC
Hauling Hal wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Hauling Hal wrote:
ECM should be a static (calculated the same way the %chance is now) effect to rate of fire depending on the mods fitted and the target's ships sensor strength. Stacking penalties or not need to be considered carefully. This way an ECM boat could jam out a number of small ships or 1 large ship.


Then suddenly Target Dampeners become totally OP.

Please try again; this time taking into consideration the entire game, not a problem in a box.



Oh, you mean the current effective countermeasure to ECM will be OP if you change ECM?

If solo, be quicker...


Precisely what percentage of a Vexor's DPS would your new ECM reduce?

ROF of guns?

WTF are guns?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kjan
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#123 - 2012-03-22 05:16:34 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Kjan wrote:


And where exactly does the ECCM go on a ship with 2 mid slots? Are we all supposed to always fit ECCM and fly around with a full set of race specific sensor implants all the time now because we might encounter ECM? Not that this even works well. Even in a maelstrom with a full set of jackals and ECCM a max skilled falcon pilot can still get back to back jamms on you. A better solution would be to increase sensor strength of combat ships across the board enough to significantly reduce the chance of being jammed while leaving EAS and Logi the same, making falcons anti support, support. Also adding in penalties to sensor strength for fitting remote repair, sensor damp, tracking disruptor, and target painter modules.


What kind of 2-midslots ships are we talking about? The kind of ships that can bring heavy DPS to a fight and therefore should be a prime target for ECM? The same kind of ships that trade their lack of midslots for an abundance of lowslots in which they can put Backup Arrays?

You say it yourself: A MAX SKILLED FALCON, that's why. It takes millions of skillpoints to be good at that a single role and you don't bring much else to the fight in the sense of dps, tank or versatility. The #1 role and priority of jammers is to (reliably) lock down DPS (especially something as nasty as a Mael). Anti-logi is a secondary role, because you can't do that if you're dead and you WILL be primary.

Don't touch ECM, ECCM or sensor strength. That's not balancing, that's just taking ECM of the table as a suitable tactic. A MUCH better way to balance EW on the battlefield is to give the players more options to counter it.

- Fix the stupid drones, that will simply sit on their asses if deployed by a jammed ship.
- Make F.O.F. missiles actually useful by having them prioritize ships that are jamming you.

Your (Amarrian?) ship can't use either of these and you're too fidgety about losing any DPS or tank to get your sensor strength up? Well then being easy to lock down is the price you'll have to accept in the name of balance, for focusing on one-dimensional tank&gank.


I guess youve never heard of a wolf...... or there HEAVY 200 DPS...
Yvella
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2012-04-02 21:02:36 UTC
nice to see CCP is interested in talking about game mechanics
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#125 - 2012-04-02 22:55:31 UTC
Nerf Caldari
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#126 - 2012-04-02 23:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
Meh, Falcon counter is Arazu.

Falcon will either...

A) Try and permajam the razu.

B) get damped so far down by the razu that it would have to be in normal engagement range to get a lock.

In either situation, its not going to be doing much in the fight.

And if the razu knows what he is doing and has lightning fast reflexes... he should damp out the falcon before even getting locked.

It takes more pilot skill, but it is an effective counter, and adds only one person to your small gang.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-04-02 23:27:42 UTC
Consider this:
Drake A is being neuted, scrammed, tracking disrupted, webbed, target painted and sensor dampened by a Pilgrim, Arazu and Rapier. It can still fire its missiles at close targets, control its drones, and remain part of the fight.
Drake B is being jammed by ONE Falcon. It can't do a single thing.

I'd rather be Drake A.

There's a problem when one ewar type is superior to all others combined.
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#128 - 2012-04-02 23:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
Ok, so you can lock to 14k, a winmatar fleet can hold point at 20-24k, razu can hold point on you at 44k w/o a fleet booster.

You would die in a fire as if you were jammed.

which would you rather be up against?

Arazu gets a scram/disrupt bonus making it much better for small gangs. It can comfortably hold a point on you, remove your DPS and even help plink at you with spike (granted guns and drones only do ~150DPS at 47k).
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-04-03 00:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Cyrina Manto wrote:
Ok, so you can lock to 14k, a winmatar fleet can hold point at 20-24k, razu can hold point on you at 44k w/o a fleet booster.

You would die in a fire as if you were jammed.

Two points you should note:
1. A Falcon stops you from locking at ANY RANGE. The jammed Drake can't do ANYTHING. The Drake being attacked by the 3 other ewar cruisers simultaneously CAN do stuff within 14km range. A silly intie pilot could get close, or the Drake could even help his fleet by destroying the drones attacking him.

2. The fact that we are debating this means that my point wins automatically. Three ships should CLEARY better than one. This is not the case. Arguably, ONE ship outclasses three.

Both ships are screwed, but the Falcon'd one is screwed MORE for only one third of the price.
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#130 - 2012-04-03 00:27:42 UTC
Umm, I wasnt talking about the whole menagerie of other ewar ships. One arazu with shield canes or something similar.

Falcon cant help you get one more kill before the enemy group bails. Razu can. It can also do anti support at the same time if they happen to have logi, in addition to having another 1-2 points on the field (which can hit out to nearly 100km with fleet boosting).

Not saying one is flat out better than the other, the gallente ships just have more versatility.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#131 - 2012-04-03 00:34:50 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
ECM is fine. Bring more friends.


You mean, bring more blobs?

Nothing clever at this time.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-04-03 00:39:12 UTC
ECM is balanced. Deal with it.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#133 - 2012-04-03 01:00:46 UTC
Since one of the counters to Falcons is to get range, how about this 'fix' to ECM:
> If you are jammed, you cannot be slowed down or have your MWD shut off.

Sure, you can jam me so I can't target you and fight back, but at least let me try get some range to try to kill off the ECM drones while your Falcon is out of optimal. Ok?

P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#134 - 2012-04-03 01:42:15 UTC
Nick Bison wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
ECM is fine. Bring more friends.

You mean, bring more blobs?

Yes, like the missile spewing, target jamming drakefleets.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#135 - 2012-04-03 09:11:50 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Two points you should note:
1. A Falcon stops you from locking at ANY RANGE. The jammed Drake can't do ANYTHING. The Drake being attacked by the 3 other ewar cruisers simultaneously CAN do stuff within 14km range. A silly intie pilot could get close, or the Drake could even help his fleet by destroying the drones attacking him.

2. The fact that we are debating this means that my point wins automatically. Three ships should CLEARY better than one. This is not the case. Arguably, ONE ship outclasses three.

Both ships are screwed, but the Falcon'd one is screwed MORE for only one third of the price.


The Drake can just warp off when jammed by a Falcon, keep all it's tank & prop modules running, while in the hands of the 3 recons it would inevitably die without any chance of retaliation. That Arazu can keep swapping scripts so that the Drake never gets a lock on the drones before they are pulled and relaunched.

Falcon doesn't outclass anything, but yes, it's still gay as ****.








.
Zverofaust
Ascetic Virtues
#136 - 2012-04-03 11:37:19 UTC
Falcons are pretty gay. I know, I have one.

The only situation where a Falcon actually adds something to PVP is when you have a Falcon in a small gang and fight a slightly larger or similar sized gang. In huge fleets it's pointless. Otherwise it is plain and simple, overpowered as a ************.

Sure, the Arazu is a counter. The Arazu is also a useless **** with ludicrous cap, otherwise no benefit to its gang, and will either be a) glass tank b) slow as **** because its armor tanking. The entire concept of having a ship (the Falcon) that can effectively eliminate 1-2 of any ship from a fight, and having only a single counter to that ship, a counter which otherwise is absolute **** and is only useful for anti-Falcon, is dumbtarded. Likewise the concept of requiring every member of a gang to sacrifice some of its tank or support mods to fit ECCM, which often won't even ******* work, because of a single enemy Falcon is silly as ****.

There is only one solution. Falcon needs the nerfbat. It still needs to stay as a purposeful, effective force multiplier but in its current form it is stupid. I suggest, because I am important and all, that Falcons only be allowed to jam one target at a time. Don't even let it activate jammers on anything else while it has them active on its first target. Blam. You have a ship that can still blackout an enemy ship from a fight, but doesn't completely ruin said fight by jamming 4 ******* guys with lucky cycles, and is counterable by having fast ships able to burn out, tackle and kill it while it's busy jamming its one target.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#137 - 2012-04-03 12:00:59 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Yes I demand less creative game play and more winmatar blobs plz.


Yea... because hitting an f key to prevent a person from locking is very creative game play...

I'm not here to argue if ecm is broken or not however I can assure you that ECM mechanics in this game is by no means creative.

In conclusion? you get a 1/10 Valentyn3
Yvella
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2012-04-03 21:00:47 UTC
Roime wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Two points you should note:
1. A Falcon stops you from locking at ANY RANGE. The jammed Drake can't do ANYTHING. The Drake being attacked by the 3 other ewar cruisers simultaneously CAN do stuff within 14km range. A silly intie pilot could get close, or the Drake could even help his fleet by destroying the drones attacking him.

2. The fact that we are debating this means that my point wins automatically. Three ships should CLEARY better than one. This is not the case. Arguably, ONE ship outclasses three.

Both ships are screwed, but the Falcon'd one is screwed MORE for only one third of the price.


The Drake can just warp off when jammed by a Falcon, keep all it's tank & prop modules running, while in the hands of the 3 recons it would inevitably die without any chance of retaliation. That Arazu can keep swapping scripts so that the Drake never gets a lock on the drones before they are pulled and relaunched.

Falcon doesn't outclass anything, but yes, it's still gay as ****.




The drake can't just warp off it is tackled. Without being ECM'd a properly fit solo/ small gang ship can wriggle free, neuts/own tackle + o/h mwd etc etc etc.

What is annoying me with ECM is it completely crushes small PVP, unless you go lol kite ship (hi winmatar) and that is dull as dish water and leaves blaster ships in a terrible state.

What winds me up even more is that ECM doesn't scale so well in fleet fights, it just evaporates....

Would love a Dev to get into an adult discussion on CCPs position on this, I have not in any of my game time seen CCP explain what they think about ECM and e-war balance. But then :CCP:
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-04-03 21:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
DarkAegix wrote:
Consider this:
Drake A is being neuted, scrammed, tracking disrupted, webbed, target painted and sensor dampened by a Pilgrim, Arazu and Rapier. It can still fire its missiles at close targets, control its drones, and remain part of the fight.
Drake B is being jammed by ONE Falcon. It can't do a single thing.

I'd rather be Drake A.

There's a problem when one ewar type is superior to all others combined.


No it isn't. Because the falcons ecm takes up midslots precisely where the shield tank of Caldari are located. And one jammer isn't enough. And armor tanking reduces the ecm strength.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#140 - 2012-04-03 21:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Yvella wrote:
Roime wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Two points you should note:
1. A Falcon stops you from locking at ANY RANGE. The jammed Drake can't do ANYTHING. The Drake being attacked by the 3 other ewar cruisers simultaneously CAN do stuff within 14km range. A silly intie pilot could get close, or the Drake could even help his fleet by destroying the drones attacking him.

2. The fact that we are debating this means that my point wins automatically. Three ships should CLEARY better than one. This is not the case. Arguably, ONE ship outclasses three.

Both ships are screwed, but the Falcon'd one is screwed MORE for only one third of the price.


The Drake can just warp off when jammed by a Falcon, keep all it's tank & prop modules running, while in the hands of the 3 recons it would inevitably die without any chance of retaliation. That Arazu can keep swapping scripts so that the Drake never gets a lock on the drones before they are pulled and relaunched.

Falcon doesn't outclass anything, but yes, it's still gay as ****.




The drake can't just warp off it is tackled. Without being ECM'd a properly fit solo/ small gang ship can wriggle free, neuts/own tackle + o/h mwd etc etc etc.

What is annoying me with ECM is it completely crushes small PVP, unless you go lol kite ship (hi winmatar) and that is dull as dish water and leaves blaster ships in a terrible state.

What winds me up even more is that ECM doesn't scale so well in fleet fights, it just evaporates....

Would love a Dev to get into an adult discussion on CCPs position on this, I have not in any of my game time seen CCP explain what they think about ECM and e-war balance. But then :CCP:






Also posting to confirm that a good pilot can get his drones to engage the Falcon by deploying them correctly before jam cycles start. Note that this doesn't mean the Drake needs to ever get a lock. He just needs to dump drones prior to being ECM'd.

Eventually the Falcon has to eff off. Or his buddies have to show up to clean the drones off him.

Either way a Drake can tank a Falcon forever - even under the proposed changes.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom