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Dear Devs, thank you for spending 5 minutes to explain a game mechanic
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#61 - 2012-03-12 17:46:25 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

1. It is common for people to have high-sec alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic.
2. ECM may not scale in fleet fights, but drone boats completely ruin ECM boats in small gang engagements more than half the time. Think about it.
3. Nothing is risk free. Nothing. See also: Smartbomb camp breaking.

Stuff in Eve has counters.

Smart people find them.

I wonder what sort of people start whine threads?


What kind of stupid falcon pilots are you encountering that sit within effective drone range. Theres no way a decent falcon pilot should be 'completely ruined' by a drone boat.

Also Suggesting FoF's as an effective counter to ecm is absolutely ********.

ECCM is also not effective enough. In order to fit enough to effectively stop you from spending a whole fight jammed you make your ship practically useless for pvp.


What's the effective range of a drone boat?

Ever hear of Drone Link Augmentors? Well, what's the range?


I see I have to have a chat with Rico, he seems to recruit "not so very smart pilots" again. P

Let's pretend the Falcon sits at optimal. Let's also pretend you have a sub-optimal setup on your ship where you sacrifice a vital highslot for a drone link aug (I know this makes your ship worse, but let's pretend, just to please this lolGustav). Let me then ask you a few questions..
a) How long does it take for your average light/medium/heavy drones to travel the ~70km the Falcon is likely to sit at?
b) How likely is it that the Falcon doesn't move, effectively "increasing" this travel range? Or are you always going to run away from the Falcon, hoping he goes closer so the drones travel shorter distance?
c) How likely is it that the Falcon and/or his pals won't kill your drones before they even arrive where he was?
d) How do you plan to send your drones to the Falcon if he's already jammed you before/after your drones were deployed, so you didn't get a certain auto-aggro on him in particular?

There's more to it, but I think we should start there, am worried you'd get a headache from all the advanced thinking here. And since your corp used to fly with mine, I'll be nice this time. <3

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#62 - 2012-03-12 17:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Misanth wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

1. It is common for people to have high-sec alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic.
2. ECM may not scale in fleet fights, but drone boats completely ruin ECM boats in small gang engagements more than half the time. Think about it.
3. Nothing is risk free. Nothing. See also: Smartbomb camp breaking.

Stuff in Eve has counters.

Smart people find them.

I wonder what sort of people start whine threads?


What kind of stupid falcon pilots are you encountering that sit within effective drone range. Theres no way a decent falcon pilot should be 'completely ruined' by a drone boat.

Also Suggesting FoF's as an effective counter to ecm is absolutely ********.

ECCM is also not effective enough. In order to fit enough to effectively stop you from spending a whole fight jammed you make your ship practically useless for pvp.


What's the effective range of a drone boat?

Ever hear of Drone Link Augmentors? Well, what's the range?


I see I have to have a chat with Rico, he seems to recruit "not so very smart pilots" again. P

Let's pretend the Falcon sits at optimal. Let's also pretend you have a sub-optimal setup on your ship where you sacrifice a vital highslot for a drone link aug (I know this makes your ship worse, but let's pretend, just to please this lolGustav). Let me then ask you a few questions..
a) How long does it take for your average light/medium/heavy drones to travel the ~70km the Falcon is likely to sit at?
b) How likely is it that the Falcon doesn't move, effectively "increasing" this travel range? Or are you always going to run away from the Falcon, hoping he goes closer so the drones travel shorter distance?
c) How likely is it that the Falcon and/or his pals won't kill your drones before they even arrive where he was?
d) How do you plan to send your drones to the Falcon if he's already jammed you before/after your drones were deployed, so you didn't get a certain auto-aggro on him in particular?

There's more to it, but I think we should start there, am worried you'd get a headache from all the advanced thinking here. And since your corp used to fly with mine, I'll be nice this time. <3


I definitely think you should talk to Rico. He'll be amused when you tell him how lol you think I am.

Sentry drones have no travel time. They apply damage immediately. Do you have any other points, or do your insults hang strictly on the incredibly uninformed assumption of drone travel time?

By the way did you know that a properly fit Sentry Dominix actually has Omnidirectional Tracking Links for just such movement? I did say "Drone Boat" after all.

Have a nice chat with Rico.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#63 - 2012-03-12 18:02:31 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

1. It is common for people to have high-sec alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic.
2. ECM may not scale in fleet fights, but drone boats completely ruin ECM boats in small gang engagements more than half the time. Think about it.
3. Nothing is risk free. Nothing. See also: Smartbomb camp breaking.

Stuff in Eve has counters.

Smart people find them.

I wonder what sort of people start whine threads?


What kind of stupid falcon pilots are you encountering that sit within effective drone range. Theres no way a decent falcon pilot should be 'completely ruined' by a drone boat.

Also Suggesting FoF's as an effective counter to ecm is absolutely ********.

ECCM is also not effective enough. In order to fit enough to effectively stop you from spending a whole fight jammed you make your ship practically useless for pvp.


What's the effective range of a drone boat?

Ever hear of Drone Link Augmentors? Well, what's the range?



Basline, no rigs, around 65K. Note that it can reach past your targeting range, so the drones will respond to an attack from beyond it.

ECM drones should be left alone. Switching out attacking drones with ECM drones is a major DPS drop for those specialized in drone ships. Often the ECM drone is the only defense one might have against a warp scramming ship outside of nuet range.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#64 - 2012-03-12 18:15:20 UTC
For the love of...

People, the ECM boat is the Eve equivalent of the lock down class found in any other MMO out there. They either spam stuns or have skill sets designed to lock down or interrupt other players skills. They always trade supreme ability at what they do for horrible survivability and are at their most annoying in 1v1. If you take them on alone you will not win. They might not kill you wither but you won't kill them.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#65 - 2012-03-12 18:19:47 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
For the love of...

People, the ECM boat is the Eve equivalent of the lock down class found in any other MMO out there. They either spam stuns or have skill sets designed to lock down or interrupt other players skills. They always trade supreme ability at what they do for horrible survivability and are at their most annoying in 1v1. If you take them on alone you will not win. They might not kill you wither but you won't kill them.


Patently false.

If you get tech ii sentries out before they hit "jam" they're dead in two volleys, three tops.

Usually before they realize they need to warp out, because they think you're jammed.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2012-03-12 18:25:13 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Basline, no rigs, around 65K. Note that it can reach past your targeting range, so the drones will respond to an attack from beyond it.
Baseline is exactly 60km (Base 20km + 25km @ Scout Drone Ops V + 15km @ EWar Drone Interfacing V).

If you're in an Ishtar, add another 5km per HAC level.

…and then add ship fittings.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#67 - 2012-03-12 18:28:31 UTC
would be cool if there where drone damps.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#68 - 2012-03-12 18:30:35 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
would be cool if there where drone damps.


This guy has obviously been blapped by a sentry domi. You can read it between the line.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2012-03-12 18:50:00 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
would be cool if there where drone damps.

This guy has obviously been blapped by a sentry domi. You can read it between the line.
…actually, as an Ishtar fan, I've always wondered why the Gallente ewar isn't some form of drone-bandwidth-siphon… thingamajig.

All the other factions have ewar that defeats their own ships:

Amarr — cap-hungry turret ships → turret disruption and cap warfare.
Minmatar — small and fast ships → target painting and webs.
Caldari — capless, trackingless missiles → **** it, just nuke their targeting computers.

Gallente — drones and blasters → messy lock-on and keeping people from running away?!

Makes no sense. P
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#70 - 2012-03-12 19:02:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
would be cool if there where drone damps.

This guy has obviously been blapped by a sentry domi. You can read it between the line.
…actually, as an Ishtar fan, I've always wondered why the Gallente ewar isn't some form of drone-bandwidth-siphon… thingamajig.

All the other factions have ewar that defeats their own ships:

Amarr — cap-hungry turret ships → turret disruption and cap warfare.
Minmatar — small and fast ships → target painting and webs.
Caldari — capless, trackingless missiles → **** it, just nuke their targeting computers.

Gallente — drones and blasters → messy lock-on and keeping people from running away?!

Makes no sense. P


This is an interesting analysis.

I always assumed that the bonuses were meant to interfere with enemy ships.

Minmatar use projectile-based weapons with not-so-hot turret tracking and MWD, so Amarr neut them to slow them down and disrupt them to augment the effectiveness of their armor.

Amarr use big slow boats, so Minmatar exploit that by increasing their sig radius even further, and slowing them down to boat anchor mode.

Gallente use boats with drones and hybrids which prefer close-range combat, so the Caldari take away their lock capability from a respectable range.

Caldari use capless, tracklingless missiles and prefer to engage at range, so Gallente boats hobble their range and feature long points to compensate for the range discrepancy.

I am by no means convinced that I'm "right" about the intended design, but it's an interesting comparison to see the two viewpoints, just the same.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#71 - 2012-03-12 19:06:11 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
would be cool if there where drone damps.

This guy has obviously been blapped by a sentry domi. You can read it between the line.
…actually, as an Ishtar fan, I've always wondered why the Gallente ewar isn't some form of drone-bandwidth-siphon… thingamajig.

All the other factions have ewar that defeats their own ships:

Amarr — cap-hungry turret ships → turret disruption and cap warfare.
Minmatar — small and fast ships → target painting and webs.
Caldari — capless, trackingless missiles → **** it, just nuke their targeting computers.

Gallente — drones and blasters → messy lock-on and keeping people from running away?!

Makes no sense. P


This is an interesting analysis.

I always assumed that the bonuses were meant to interfere with enemy ships.

Minmatar use projectile-based weapons with not-so-hot turret tracking and MWD, so Amarr neut them to slow them down and disrupt them to augment the effectiveness of their armor.

Amarr use big slow boats, so Minmatar exploit that by increasing their sig radius even further, and slowing them down to boat anchor mode.

Gallente use boats with drones and hybrids which prefer close-range combat, so the Caldari take away their lock capability from a respectable range.

Caldari use capless, tracklingless missiles and prefer to engage at range, so Gallente boats hobble their range and feature long points to compensate for the range discrepancy.

I am by no means convinced that I'm "right" about the intended design, but it's an interesting comparison to see the two viewpoints, just the same.



What you posted is something I kind of felt was the case over the years- each faction is mainly geared to take on their enemy. That's my take on it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Leisen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-03-12 20:19:01 UTC
I must say, old bean! ECM is far easier to counter than say, neuts...especially neuts from a Curse.

OLAWD MY COOKIE CUTTA FIT WOULD BE COMPRAMISED BY DA ECCM! WUT IS I TA DO?!

Obligatory "Welcome to EVE."
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#73 - 2012-03-12 22:06:51 UTC
Here's a tidbit that someone might be able to help me with:

When I started in 2006 I fitted an ECM module, one of those burst ECMs for jamming everything in range, and my drones switched sides on me - their symbols became red plusses.

Does this still happen? Have not mixed ECM and drones on a very long time.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-03-13 00:10:18 UTC
The only way to fix ECM, is to remove ECM.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-03-13 00:44:48 UTC
MWD+web+scram needs to be fixed - it allows people to get under my guns and then I can do nothing but sit there without being able to do anything.

HINT: There are counters to ECM. ECCM, Drones, FoF (though FoF is hardly a workable solution thanks to ROFL target closest object), even smart bombs.

And if the falcons outnumber you, the issue isn't that ECM is overpowered, the issue is that you are outnumbered.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#76 - 2012-03-13 03:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Marlona Sky wrote:
The only way to fix ECM, is to remove ECM.


I'd like to hear what the Falcon and Rook are for then.

This oughta be good.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#77 - 2012-03-13 06:27:12 UTC
Show me on the dolly avatar where the bad Falcon touched you.

Falcons are not the end-all be-all of small gang pvp. Lost one the other day because my enemies used their heads instead of crying in local/forums. Gave them props in local and warped out.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2012-03-13 06:41:04 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Show me on the dolly avatar where the bad Falcon touched you.
Don't be silly. Falcons can't touch Avatars.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-03-13 06:47:36 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
The only way to fix ECM, is to remove ECM.


I'd like to hear what the Falcon and Rook are for then.

This oughta be good.


You have already made up your mind. Nothing I suggest for a new role would be satisfactory for you. The Falcon and Rook's new role is to be crammed directly up your fat, neckbeard ass.

How is that for a new role?
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-03-13 07:25:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
If ECM -ONLY- broke the lock of something it would be fine.
I generally agree with this.

The largest annoyance with ECM is that feeling of not being able to do anything about it — if it hits, you have to sit there for 20 seconds, no ifs, no buts, and then you can hope that at the end of the cycle, you might be given a chance to get back in the fight. It's the 20 seconds that cause the “permajammed” perception (regardless of whether it actually happens or not — in a fight that lasts 100 seconds, a single successful jam that causes a 20s blackout + 5 seconds of reacquiring time is “permanent” enough).

Making targeted ECM have the same effect as an ECM burst would have a couple of advantages:

· Sensor damping would suddenly be very important — yes, your BECAUSEOFFALCONs might knock the enemy ships out, but they'll be back to firing in 5-6 seconds… unless you also brought a BECAUSEOFARAZU to ensure that it's actually 10-15 seconds instead.

· Size becomes an interesting component. Instead of small ships being unavoidably locked out by ECM due to their low sensor strength, making that dreaded permajam that more likely, they will still lose lock very easily, but they will also reacquire their targets quickly. An ECM ship can no longer simply put a jammer on an interceptor and know that he is now safe from being tackled since the jamming strength so easily overcomes those silly frigate sensors.

· ECM now has two kinds of counters — the passive ECCM and the more active sensor booster (well… the active part is the reacquisition of your target, which is made all the more immediate with a booster).


This man gets it.

Ronald Reagan: I do not like Sweden, they support communism. Minister: Sir, but Sweden are anti-communist, Sir.  Ronald Reagan: I do not care what kind of communists they are.