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The CSM6 emergency summit minutes are out.

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Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2011-09-09 16:04:18 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

Those minutes are pathetically vapid and weak. I have trouble believing there was any significant controversy whatsoever over the content there. Its quite bizzare to hear there has been any fight whatsoever over that content. The entire thing reads like CSM saying the player base is unhappy about X,Y,Z and CCP saying "oh well its our strategy to press on regardless and ignore you".

It is disappointing that the emergency summit appears so meaningless in retrospect and I guess it does explain why no real changes have been declared 4 months after incarna-release.

[...]

But what I read in these emergency minutes is not anything approaching a partnership of respect its simply a cash-greedy corporate buzzword addiction riding roughshod over the opinions of the Eve player base and deciding to ignore all feedback, council, advise and suggestion from the CSM representatives.

And to the current CSM while I do respect and appreciate the time you took attending this emergency meeting and hounding CCP for the minutes we got (such as they are) I have to say I don't think you did enough to press in the meetings on the evidence we now have and to redeem yourselves going forward infinitely more pressure will be required.


Can't say there is anything I disagree with in this post. Although I think the CSM felt overshadowed and no in control during the entire meeting. The CSM minutes are poor, the message is poor and I actually understand why CCP would not want these issues out because they clearly show how little the message we where sending has been received by CCP

The only question I have is why the CSM put up with all of that so long. Good thing they finally made a move in the right direction, confrontation.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2011-09-09 16:05:25 UTC
I'll go against the flow.

Thanks for this, a good read and seemed to cover the major concerns players had.

And lets hope that CCP do include you guys more in the development of the nex store and its items.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Abbadon
Rat der 66er
#43 - 2011-09-09 16:08:50 UTC
Quiet honestly all I see is spin...blah blah blah.

3 months.........seriously?

Oh, CCP, for the record - I am sick to the back teeth of reading about your goals and plans.

Both these items need some fairly robust time frame.

Without a time frame, plans and goals are just wishful thinking and day dreams.

So how about:

When will we expect to see the replacement hangar view back?

When will we expect the other races quarters?

When will we expect to see a multi-user environment?

When will we actually get to see the graphics quality suggested in all the Ambulation/WIS/Incarna hype?

When will the player driven economy be integrated within Incarna?

When oh when are you going to give the FIS team some meaningful resources?


I've heard your words - how about some action for a change !
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#44 - 2011-09-09 16:09:16 UTC
Denidil wrote:

i don't disagree with that assessment. but that doesn't make it CCP's fault that video card manufacturers - a certain one in particular - are absolutely hammered **** about managing the TDP of their video cards, and the thermal output that must be dissipated.

hardware concerns like that are supposed to be of no concern to the game. that's the purpose of general purpose abstraction interfaces like D3D and OpenGL.


Doesn't it stand to reason that high GPU percentage means the card is producing heat? Why does CQ need 70-80% utilization on a single client?

Quote:
blame CCP for bad performance of the CQ
blame your video card manufacturer if your card failed because of it.


Oh sure, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to run any game that thrashes the graphic card like that because its obviously reducing the lifespan of the card. Hence I (like many many thousands others) turned off CQ almost as soon as it was rolled out.

So yep. Its CCP's fault they cannot decently code a single room environment in 2011 and as a result we need to lose functionality by switching over to an insulting static door graphic.

But if you run this stupid thing and let your graphic card overheat to failure - sure, thats your own silly fault.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#45 - 2011-09-09 16:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Abbadon wrote:
Oh, CCP, for the record - I am sick to the back teeth of reading about your goals and plans.


Aren't their goals and plans the central concern here, or am i missing something? All the people protesting and quitting say quite clearly it's because of the direction they think CCP is taking the game.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#46 - 2011-09-09 16:15:46 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

Those minutes are pathetically vapid and weak. I have trouble believing there was any significant controversy whatsoever over the content there. Its quite bizzare to hear there has been any fight whatsoever over that content. The entire thing reads like CSM saying the player base is unhappy about X,Y,Z and CCP saying "oh well its our strategy to press on regardless and ignore you".

It is disappointing that the emergency summit appears so meaningless in retrospect and I guess it does explain why no real changes have been declared 4 months after incarna-release.

[...]

But what I read in these emergency minutes is not anything approaching a partnership of respect its simply a cash-greedy corporate buzzword addiction riding roughshod over the opinions of the Eve player base and deciding to ignore all feedback, council, advise and suggestion from the CSM representatives.

And to the current CSM while I do respect and appreciate the time you took attending this emergency meeting and hounding CCP for the minutes we got (such as they are) I have to say I don't think you did enough to press in the meetings on the evidence we now have and to redeem yourselves going forward infinitely more pressure will be required.


Can't say there is anything I disagree with in this post. Although I think the CSM felt overshadowed and no in control during the entire meeting. The CSM minutes are poor, the message is poor and I actually understand why CCP would not want these issues out because they clearly show how little the message we where sending has been received by CCP

The only question I have is why the CSM put up with all of that so long. Good thing they finally made a move in the right direction, confrontation.


Well, I imagine some must have been a bit overawed by the razzle dazzle of Iceland. (lol okay maybe not). But it is easy to get giving a bit of flannel and soft soap. It must also have been very hard to keep silent about this stuff for the months of minute wrangling - particularly the outrageous nonsense spouted by the NeX advocates at those meetings. It does explain the frustration and anger now expressed by certain CSM personalities.

(Though the op is a bit deluded to describe this as a "victory" really given the content.)

Personally. More Jita Riots are needed. More heat, more publicity. Saving Eve Online from the puling banality of half-assed cash clothes vanity buzzword tosh needs to be front and centre on everyone's radar.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-09-09 16:20:18 UTC
the minutes were heavily edited (basically written entirely) by ccp's marketing team fyi

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Psychophantic
#48 - 2011-09-09 16:24:44 UTC
E man Industries wrote:
okay so what was so contraversial that it took this long to edit?


We'll never know because it's been edited out.
Abbadon
Rat der 66er
#49 - 2011-09-09 16:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Abbadon
Bane Necran wrote:
Abbadon wrote:
Oh, CCP, for the record - I am sick to the back teeth of reading about your goals and plans.


Aren't their goals and plans the central concern here, or am i missing something? All the people protesting and quitting say quite clearly it's because of the direction they think CCP is taking the game.



My point was that goals and plans have a time frame - something that CCP have yet to grasp it seems.

I dont want to hear "We are working on a new hangar view", I want to hear " We have a team of 10 people working on a new hangar view, its in alpha at the moment (70% complete) and our planned deployment is the start of October"
Jr Instructorcon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-09-09 16:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jr Instructorcon
White Tree wrote:
more or less completely un-doctored and exactly how it was supposed to be


How can there be a lot of back and forth over a three month period, yet it is "un-doctored"?

Wink twice if you are being censored by CCP.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#51 - 2011-09-09 16:33:53 UTC
Why oh why did I read these minutes. All it did was refresh my utter disdain for CCP's management.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Grateler
People's Front of Offugen
#52 - 2011-09-09 16:34:16 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
White Tree wrote:
After a long delay, and a lot of back and forth between the CSM and CCP, we have managed to get the minutes out, more or less completely un-doctored and exactly how it was supposed to be, this is a victory for both the CSM and the player-base as a whole:

You can read the devblog about it here:

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2386

(sorry about the delay)


Those minutes are pathetically vapid and weak. I have trouble believing there was any significant controversy whatsoever over the content there. Its quite bizzare to hear there has been any fight whatsoever over that content. The entire thing reads like CSM saying the player base is unhappy about X,Y,Z and CCP saying "oh well its our strategy to press on regardless and ignore you".

It is disappointing that the emergency summit appears so meaningless in retrospect and I guess it does explain why no real changes have been declared 4 months after incarna-release.

To my mind it puts us straight back to square one at incarna-rage, monocle-gate and the Jita riots and only thing the delay on these minutes has achieved is to ensure that a few more veterans unsubbed before the next wave of protest.

Frankly, NeX should be scrapped, Incarna project should finish with the next few CQ's and be put on the back-burner with a single scrum team at best to "iterate" it. While the huge majority of CCP developers need to get back to core Eve development ASAP and plan on delivering us 18 months worth of solid spaceship content development as an apology to the loyal player base of this game.

CCP management is so badly wrong and out of touch with its subscriber base it hurts.

Its ridiculous that it'll take an absolute unsubscription-wave and cash crisis and storm of 3rd party press site outrage to make these CCP stuffed-suits listen to the issues when they have a bloody CSM project in place to help them consult with the community already!

Why initiate the CSM in the first place if you are going to ignore the community and its representatives at every turn?

I remember going to Iceland as the first CSM chair and listening to CCP declaring a bold new vision of game development in partnership with its player base as a fledgling virtual nation sending representatives to influence the future development of the game.

I stood there at Thingvellir listening to this company describing us as "internet chieftains" responsible for a grand new experiment in virtual politics as stakeholders in the virtual world of New Eden and I thought "this is pretty loopy, but its good loopy, its visionary madness, its exciting and its bold."

But what I read in these emergency minutes is not anything approaching a partnership of respect its simply a cash-greedy corporate buzzword addiction riding roughshod over the opinions of the Eve player base and deciding to ignore all feedback, council, advise and suggestion from the CSM representatives.

And to the current CSM while I do respect and appreciate the time you took attending this emergency meeting and hounding CCP for the minutes we got (such as they are) I have to say I don't think you did enough to press in the meetings on the evidence we now have and to redeem yourselves going forward infinitely more pressure will be required.

The only "victory" for the Eve player base going forwards is going to be if CCP wake up and smell the roses and put their focus back on restoring Eve from its 18 months of content neglect.


I 'liked' your post and agree with what you say, but why the uproar now ?

The minutes say what happened and what was stated at the time, Im not sure what you was expecting from them ?

Was you expecting an apology or for them to state a change in company strategy ? All the minutes do is document what was discussed, you can interperet their tone in different ways.

The minutes are not important, detials future strategy are and that was not going to be answered with the release of the minutes.

Peoples complaints seem to have shifted since the CSM anyway, the main concerns there were Nex and pay to play items, now it seems that the real issue is FiS development which wasnt the core of the complaints back then.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-09-09 16:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
lol @ the first paragraph under incarna

Now I know why they bitched so long for how it was gonna be said cause if the CSM objected (like they did) they look like fools

"a very successful expansion, deployment was very smooth"

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#54 - 2011-09-09 16:38:00 UTC



Rodj Blake wrote:


I look forward to CCP removing PLEX from the game.


LOL
UMAD

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2011-09-09 17:16:35 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Got to the part where video cards overheating was a primary concern and threw up a little. No wonder you didn't want the minutes released.


strictly speaking that is the video cards fault. it is a sad state of affairs when video game designers have to be aware in their implementations to limit certain things because video card manufacturers can't be bothered to properly monitor the cards TDP and temperature to prevent burnout, and can't be assed to put those limiters in their drivers where they belong


(why yes - i am a bitter software engineer who's had to code around bugs in video card drivers before. why do you ask?)


Really.

Here's the thing. Running 1 CQ environment in Eve I get GPU utilization at 75-80% on my I7 processor and GTX580 graphics card. And nothing is really happening there. Its a character standing around an environment doing nothing. It ramps up the fans and makes a noise and heats up the room even!

Last night I bought Space Marine. This is a 3d action fps mayhem game. I run it in 1920x1200 res with all options turned to maximum. It has space-marines carving up dozens of hires-rendered orcs with power axes with gouts of blood and severed limbs hurled skywards in 20 feet tall gore fountains. There's so much violence on screen its shocking.

NB. Space Marine costs much less than a monocle.

Have a guess what my GPU utilization hovers around ?

25%

Thats right. I can run 3 bloody copies of the game in the same GPU utilization as it takes for one nonsense Minmatar CQ in Eve. Space Marine doesn't even make my fan spin above near silent idle.

And you want to tell us the problem is with the graphics cards?

Its simply a hugely poorly designed graphic engine that shows CCP don't really get avatars and they'd have been better off licensing somebody else's engine rather than wasting incredible man-hours of effort reinventing the wheel only to find the wheel wasn't even a perfect circle and kept rubbing the wheel arches!

CQ performance is utterly horrible.


It's more than that.

CCP has been developing Internet Walking for what? Five years now? Or is it six? And in all that time not only could they make it work as initially advertised but on top of that they couldn't work out how to make it work efficiently

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2011-09-09 17:19:15 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:



Rodj Blake wrote:


I look forward to CCP removing PLEX from the game.


LOL
UMAD


Well, they did say that they didn't want people spending RL money for an unfair in-game advantage compared to spending time in the game.

Now, if people spending hundreds of punds/dollars/euros at a time in order to buy an experienced character or a super-cap doesn't fit that definition, then what does?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-09-09 17:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
lol at the graphics card part. When ppl say it was caused by Incarne, theyre crucified on the forums but it was important enough fr the CSM to bring it up Roll


"ship spinning" do they REALLY not understand that the "ship spinning" argument isnt actually about spinning the ships but the lightweight client? **** I know that an I been here less than six months

"NPE" that term make anyone else concerned? Would be funny if the term was first "NGE"

huh "CCP and the CSM had a productive dialogue" I think I see some on the editting

the minutes (specifically HOW prepared CCP was as far as the vitrual items and NeX stuff), added with Hilmar's letter, seems to support the idea that fearless was more a "this is the direction we WILL go" type piece as opposed to a "might go" piece.

lol at the CSM "why didnt you come to us if you were having issues with the pricing etc"
"cause you are in our eyes as the 'pubbies' are in yours"

gotta love all the omissions and redacted bits where it just says "after a long discussion"

Ugh I think im starting to see where the CSM are coming from. Theyre bringing the concerns of the players to CCP and CCP talks back like a parent talking to a slow child.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Nopsa
Lithium Flower.
#58 - 2011-09-09 17:24:18 UTC
From the minutes:
Quote:
CCP clearly stated that the investment of money in EVE should not give a player an unfair advantage
over the investment of time.


I'd love to see that changed to:
CCP clearly stated that the investment of money in EVE should not give a player any advantage
over the investment of time.

---

But generally bit disappointed as there's nothing that indicates CCP to change the direction, but trying to force MT on the game. I'm afraid that MTs will slip to effect the general game play one way or other, as otherwise it's not really gonna make any serious money for CCP, which after all is the point of whole thing.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-09-09 17:28:30 UTC
Though I do like the bit where it says "CCP's overall strategy and direction is understood by the CSM"

so what the hell changed in the last 3 months?

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#60 - 2011-09-09 17:29:19 UTC
i was under the impression that minuets looks like this

csm dude number 1 said. ccp you suck, incarna sucks and the players dont like it on the whole

ccp dude number 3 said. csm is just a puppet of the pr department and we dont actually give a toss what you say or thing, and to hell with the players and the feedback

csm dude chairman said. well im upset by this and im gonan go away in a huff.

well at least any minuets ive seen in the real world anyhow.

white wash is white


OMG when can i get a pic here