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New Dev Blog: CSM Special Summit -- Meeting minutes are out

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Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#21 - 2011-09-09 15:18:42 UTC
Reading these minutes, I feel like the initially released joint statement was far more detailed, on-point, relevant, expressive, informative, and, to be honest, entertaining to read Big smile The initial joint statement, while its overall tone was very matter-of-fact, demonstrated to me the extent that the CSM pushed on CCP; it also demonstrated a certain amount of chagrin and honest confusion on the part of CCP.

In other words, between all the low-key wordage of the initial statement, you found that an open and honest communication occurred, with some consensus and understanding reached.

These minutes are overworked, banal to say the least.

Yet at least, they are now released. They are not what I expected, but they are released. For that, I commend the CSM and CCP both.

Time to move on to the next soap opera!

GG

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#22 - 2011-09-09 15:21:00 UTC
As I said on Twitter, all of the "CSM said" information is the original, unedited stuff.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#23 - 2011-09-09 15:24:01 UTC
I appreciate all the work the CSM has done on our behalf. Not an easy job, being alternately lauded and reviled by the most impassioned MMO community I've seen, for good or ill.

My biggest beef here is not the fact that it took almost three months to put out a 7.5 page press release, but that what was released could possibly be considered 'minutes'. This is at most a summary. Minutes are supposed to be, if not actual transcriptions and direct quotations, then condensed statements with attribution to the speaker that shows the precise order of the discussion.

The CSM portions seem genuine as to how they felt about the issues and presented them to CCP. But each of CCP's sections read like marketing doublespeak. I can't imagine the Mittani, Seleene or any of the others sitting there listening to such tripe and not losing their minds with the sheer volume of non-answers.

'Because that's our strategy', 'Because that's what our market research said' and 'Because we're taking baby steps' are not answers that will win hearts and minds. It's all a dodge. The fundamental question the CSM asked that CCP did not answer is 'why the hell are you doing all of this without at least flashing it at this elected body, whose singular purpose is to facilitate conversations between you and your customer.'

It shows me that while individual devs may support and appreciate the CSM's role, management in general simply doesn't see their use. This summit was one more PR stunt. Hilmar should have been in at least one of the meetings. He hasn't heard anything that's been said. He heard the statements at the end. He's obviously the one with his head in the clouds, swimming in dollar signs and jargon, slapping himself on the back at what a success Incarna has been.

/rant
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-09-09 15:26:13 UTC
Three months later.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-09-09 15:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Bel Amar wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.

I'll try a second reply because I am afraid my first one lacks clarity.

Quote:
Players: "Players are concerned with having to spend RL money to stay competitive"

CCP: "No single player has to spend real-life money, any player can just buy AUR with ISK (via PLEX)."

Players: "But someone has paid for that PLEX..."

CCP: "So players are concerned with other players spending RL money on ISK (via PLEX)?"

Players: "yes... no... but this would increase PLEX demand! PLEX prices would go up, up, up! Everything would be very expensive..."

CCP: "Ahh... so this is about the ISK cost of (game-affecting) NeX items?
"And as long as we manage to maintain an agreeable balance between ISK (aka time investment) and PLEX/AUR (aka money investment) power MTs are fine?"

Players: "ahem... no ... power MTs are BAD!"

CCP: "But why???"


I don't think that players' concerns are unfounded and silly, that's not what I want to say.

i think the issue is presented in a wrong and way too blurry way - and that there is some real intellectual effort required to bring it into a shape that doesn't fall victim to CCP's arguments.

(the fictional discussion above would probably evolve into a debate on what exactly makes a sandbox sandboxy)
Minsc
Phoenix Order
#26 - 2011-09-09 15:33:57 UTC
LOL at the ending statement about Hilmar suggesting a change in tone of the CSM statement and the CSM basically saying FU we're not your marketing drones.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#27 - 2011-09-09 15:35:21 UTC
Bel Amar wrote:
Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...

Um this....
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2011-09-09 15:35:54 UTC
Just some friendly marketing advice, which CCP apparently didn't get from their outside consultant: if you're running a truly unique market, then to do market research, you need to research your own market. CCP has the ideal group for this: the CSM: a group of players who probably spend too much time in EVE to begin with, and with whom CCP has the appropriate NDAs in place. It's not a large enough sample size for true market research, but is good at least for a market sniff test.

I would love to know what consultancy CCP used for this...and to know the last time anyone on that consultancy's team logged into EVE.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-09-09 15:44:53 UTC
Hmm...

I did read this thing but...

Was it just me or did CCP say they havent planned any "gold ammo" and then not saying they whould never consider it in the future?
Like, "we will not consider "gold ammo" EVER!" is sorta what we wanted?

Also, that document is a PR release not minutes...
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-09-09 15:49:53 UTC
It took THIS long to release THOSE minutes??? OMG!!!

I would LOVE to know which parts CCP had issue with - I would assume that last part where Hilmer tries to spin things and the CSM called him on it was a major sticking point???
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-09-09 15:50:25 UTC
Aeril Malkyre wrote:
The CSM portions seem genuine as to how they felt about the issues and presented them to CCP. But each of CCP's sections read like marketing doublespeak. I can't imagine the Mittani, Seleene or any of the others sitting there listening to such tripe and not losing their minds with the sheer volume of non-answers.

'Because that's our strategy', 'Because that's what our market research said' and 'Because we're taking baby steps' are not answers that will win hearts and minds. It's all a dodge. The fundamental question the CSM asked that CCP did not answer is 'why the hell are you doing all of this without at least flashing it at this elected body, whose singular purpose is to facilitate conversations between you and your customer.'

It shows me that while individual devs may support and appreciate the CSM's role, management in general simply doesn't see their use.

This - and it extends further than just the CSM. I've seen too much evidence suggesting that CCP management is out of touch with the rest of the company and the playerbase when it comes to making their goals.

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Callic Veratar
#32 - 2011-09-09 15:58:33 UTC
I have never been angry at CCP for what has happened since Incarna. I don't see anything wrong, if I take them at their word. What I see as an endemic problem of the company is that they are so focused on what could make their job easier to do that they're forgetting to make the game better.

The last time any form of balancing occurred was in April: http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=223

A minor tweak to a couple ships in Incursion 1.4.

Incursion had 14 releases, each with noticeable changes.

On it's current track, Incarna has had 3.

The game is not getting worse. It's not going anywhere. I've been hoping for 2 months to wake up to a new devblog explaining the 5 new amazing (hell, I'll take 3 new mediocre things) that will be out in the next few weeks, but it still hasn't happened.

I tend to follow the gaming blogs fairly closely and have noticed some games have released massive amounts of content in mere months. Others have monthly or weekly balance patches.

Instead we get news every once in a while that we might get a balance patch of some sort, eventually, for something that's making vast portions of nullsec uninhabitable.

Forget upgrading the API or the forum or (at this point) even fleet lag. There's a massive list of things that need fixing (blasters, gallente, supercaps, factional warfare, sov, drone behaviour, black ops, destroyers, outposts, poses, storyline items, ship models, assault frigates) and a pile of new things (comet/ring mining, 1-6/10 deadspace complexes, new missions, new systems, hive ships, the Tornado, much MUCH more).

I don't think it can't be done. The problem is that with all of video games out there, I'm becoming apathetic. I don't care about EVE anymore, and the thousands of hours I put in for the last few years are starting to seem like a waste that could have been better spent on a myriad of other things.

Impress me. Impress all of us.
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#33 - 2011-09-09 16:02:22 UTC
If you want a bit more background info on events leading up to the release of these minutes, I've made a list of relevant links here:

Freebooted Blog Banter 28

EVE Online: The Text Adventure --- GameSkinny Correspondent --- Freebooted Blogger
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2011-09-09 16:03:14 UTC
"The CSM generally agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had generally been a very
successful expansion"

ahahahahahahahahahahaha you've got to be kidding me

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2011-09-09 16:04:11 UTC
"it doesn't do anything, it melts half the graphics cards on the market, it's a poorly coded piece of **** and everyone turns it off immediately but since it doesn't delete boot.ini it is a 'technical success'

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2011-09-09 16:06:01 UTC
basically CCP's position is "our QA people can't replicate the problem (because they don't exist, as anyone who has seen a patch can attest to) so there is no problem"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2011-09-09 16:12:18 UTC
"CCP also explained that due to the realities of business and the complexities of the EVE socio-economic system, it could not give the all-encompassing and definitive answers about virtual goods that the community demanded in the days before the summit, and felt they had to maintain the flexibility to adapt to changes in the MMO environment in the future."

translation:

"CCP is going to introduce gold ammo, shut up nerds"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2011-09-09 16:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Zymurgist
CCP mentioned what an amazing feeling it is to see such passion for EVE from the community. Even though the source of display was unfortunate, level emotion and dedication involved was both touching and humbling.


Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2011-09-09 16:15:40 UTC
i'm not actually trying to megapost, I just keep reading through these minutes and being amazed anyone thought this would work at all and feeling The Urge To Post

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2011-09-09 16:23:03 UTC
let me make something clear since CCP apparently still doesn't get it: the NeXT store was and is an utter failure beyond "the messaging" you idiots

your idiotic messaging only exacerbated a problem caused by a horrifically flawed design but you don't seem to get the messaging was only the cherry on the **** sundae that was incarna

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.