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Tach Paladin

Author
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-09 04:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavnas
So I was looking through BC fits and most paladin ones seem to use 5 slots tanks (WTF?) or pulses (which I'm sure can be nice for a variety of reasons, but not for me).

So I came up with this:


[Paladin, First]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Corelum C-Type Energized Thermic Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Reflective Membrane
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System
Heat Sink II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

Obviously, I haven't checked all the faction mods for cost and some might have to be downgraded to be realistic. (An alternative was to drop the PDS, pick up implants for about 6% more power and shove another heat sink on there.)

The one thing that bugs me though is this lolfit seems to have very similar numbers even before I figured out what rigs to shove into it, though it lacks a web.


[Paladin, ErsatzNightmare]
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]



Edit: And of course starting out before having the T2 specialization down, meta4s work wonders for fixing fitting issues and cap issues, but at a certain point when this much money has been spent, gun DPS should at least approach 1k.
Liam Mirren
#2 - 2012-03-09 04:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Why are you using passive resists? Also, you're just better off with the an armour version, something like this (needs PG4).

[Paladin, LVL 4 - Tach]
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I

Large Ancillary Current Router II
Large Energy Burst Aerator I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-09 06:06:07 UTC
Umm... that fit adds 400m in rigs and loses a bit of DPS. It's tankier, but do I need the extra tank?

Also, I realize suddenly that the A-Types of those (which are slightly better than T2 hardeners can be had for 40-60m each).
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#4 - 2012-03-09 08:34:26 UTC
On a pally it may actually be worth using Imperial navy tachs. They have a discount on cap usage, and t1 fitting costs as well. Minor loss in dmg without the 10% ROF (beam laser spec), but possibly worth it. Loss of aurora ammo isn't a big issue because you'll probably not be fighting beyond 70km anyway, and with your tracking comps multifreq will hit that handily.
Liam Mirren
#5 - 2012-03-09 11:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Mavnas wrote:
Umm... that fit adds 400m in rigs and loses a bit of DPS. It's tankier, but do I need the extra tank?

Also, I realize suddenly that the A-Types of those (which are slightly better than T2 hardeners can be had for 40-60m each).


Compared to the shield fit the armour fit gets better tracking due to the tracking comps instead of enhancers (and web in very short range situations) meaning you can fight your way out of trouble. Same thing with the extra tank, if crap happens (or it's just a more difficult mission) the extra tank just makes it safer. If you want to shield fit get a Nightmare as that gets extra tracking and more slots for shield. Also, you WANT T2 turrets, with the improved Gleam crystals (they now get a tracking BONUS) it's a shame to pass on.

On the armour fit, I'm not one to go full tank at all but I wouldn't be at ease fitting a crap tank to to a long range fitted ship, would you have pulses you'd have increased dps and tracking short range so that CAN work with less tank as it kills faster when in trouble. AND low tracking AND mediocre tank just screams lossmail to me, would you live in a perfect world where every mission suits your fitting, isn't terribly difficult and you never mess up then sure it'll work. In reality, perhaps not so much.

On the rig cost, I'd probably put the money into rigs rather than modules, that way you stay less of a gank target. The a-types are quite more expensive (100-160 mil each) so there isn't *really* a cost difference. You trade one T2 rig for normal, cheapo resists. Also means that would you have to switch resists due to NPC faction you don't have to shell out more isk. It does slightly less dps, this is true.


After some more thought (was late last night), here's probably the "best" option, needs a pg8 and max fitting skills though.


[Paladin, LVL 4 - Tach]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-09 12:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
I use the following, no fitting rigs or modules required:

Lows:
  • Dark Blood LAR (Or Imp Navy, which ever is currently cheapest on contracts as they're identical)
  • 3x Active Hardeners, mission spec
  • 3x Heatsink II


Meds:
  • 1x Tracking Comp II w/scripts for range and tracking
  • 3x Cap Charger II

High:
  • 4x Tachyon Beam Laser II's
  • 1x Salvager II
  • 2x Small Tractor Beam I

Rigs:
  • 2x CCC I's (probably could get away with one CCC II if you splash the cash)

It's a squeeze on the PG front, and only works with a faction rep, T2 LAR will not fit.

You will need to manually fly it on some missions, namely when NPC mach's are about or to hit cruisers under 10km, but that's simply a case of managing transversal, something all BS pilots should be familiar with.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-03-09 16:41:22 UTC
Hmm... so the consensus seems to be to have 3 hardeners and try to lose the fitting mod somehow. (I need to check how many PG implants that would take. I suspect with 3% from the new ones they gave us a little while back, that might be viable.)

I'm honestly more comfortable going for web + 2x track computers than cap stability. That was really my problem with the shield fit. It looks good on EFT, but it fails to use the ship's bonuses. I mean with a full set of implants that one would tank really well, but...
Siriani Blue
All Star Shipyards
#8 - 2012-03-09 18:09:37 UTC
Paladin's a great ship, particularly against EM weak rats who quite often start at long range from you anyway.
The fit I use 8 out of 10 times goes like this (note that this will need a PG implant)...

Lows
4 Imperial Navy Heatsinks (nom nom nom)
2 Energized Thermic & Reflective Membranes or active hardners (A-type adaptives are cheapish and slightly better resist than T2 active with armor comps fully trained)
Large armor repper, T2, faction (more boost & cap) or a Core C-type I find fits nicely, is no more expensive than faction and uses less cap for only slightly lower boost)

Mids
2 Tracking comps (carry both tracking and optimal scripts)
Medium cap booster (800s)
SeBo or Webber

Highs
4 T2 Tachyon
Tractors + salvager

Rigs - Nano pump & accelerator

Note that even with a cap booster this isn't quite cap stable but most of the time everything is dead before they get through your shield, or requires a pulse or 2 of the repper.

For Mercs fit Megapulse, add a little more tank, they'll still melt in 2-3 volleys.
For EOM, fly the gank setup, they melt.
For drones, really depends on the mission, if they're longer range use tachs, shorter use the megapulse - either way they melt pretty quick
For angels & guristas... fly another ship (guristas aren't so bad really other than the jamming - bring a friend in sentry domi to tankem for ya!)
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-09 19:33:33 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
Hmm... so the consensus seems to be to have 3 hardeners and try to lose the fitting mod somehow. (I need to check how many PG implants that would take. I suspect with 3% from the new ones they gave us a little while back, that might be viable.)

I'm honestly more comfortable going for web + 2x track computers than cap stability. That was really my problem with the shield fit. It looks good on EFT, but it fails to use the ship's bonuses. I mean with a full set of implants that one would tank really well, but...


I should point out my previous fit isn't cap stable despite 3x Cap Chargers and 2x CCC rigs. It's near cap stable at 20ish minutes (cap stable if you swap away from Multifreq), which tbh, is over doing it, and you could swap out a Cap Charger with ease.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-03-09 19:34:01 UTC
The Paladin is a bad ship out classed by a well fit T1 BS, most navy BS, all pirate BS and most other Marauders.

Sell it and buy youself a useful ship.
Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
#11 - 2012-03-09 19:43:36 UTC
If you are going to use a shield booster, train Cladri BS to 4 and get a Nightmare.
Arcosian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-03-09 21:31:20 UTC
Voith wrote:
The Paladin is a bad ship out classed by a well fit T1 BS, most navy BS, all pirate BS and most other Marauders.

Sell it and buy youself a useful ship.

You sir don't know what the hell you are talking about. Roll

But as for the OP there are many posts about how to fit a Paladin and I would suggest using the search function next time. But please for the love of god don't shield tank a pally.

The Paladin can be fit a variety of ways but when I rarely feel the urge to run a L4 I use the fit below:

Paladin [L4 Missioner]

Lows:
2x armor thermic II
1x armor em II
1 Corpus A-Type Large armor repper
3x imperial navy heatsink

Meds:
2x cap recharge II
2x tracking computer II (tracking or range scripts)

Highs:
4x tachyon Beam Laser II (Imperial Navy multi-frequency)
2x tractor beams
1x Salvager

Implants:
PG8
AX-2
CC8
CX-2
Lancer G2-Epsilon

Rigs:
Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large CCC I

Drones:
5 Hobgob II
5 Hammerhead II

Stats (all level 5)
1009 DPS/6943 volley (INMF guns only) to 43+41km (range scripts)
1108 DPS with hobgobs
~800 dps tank for bloods and sansha
Cap stable at 52% without the repper running

Comments:
I have run hundreds of L4s with this and have had no problems except in L4 Sansha Blockade. There is heavy tracking disruption so don't use a gunboat for it (sansha blockade can be run in a paladin but it will be a pain until all the TD cruisers are killed). Tachyons are good for missions but pulses and an afterburner can be fitted if you want. However, with tachyons you will kill stuff as fast as you can lock it (3 volley most BS and insta-pop everything else). Salvaging is ok but I usually run 3-5 missions then come back in a Noctis.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-03-09 23:43:11 UTC
Grats Man, you just spent a few billion for a ship with 1 damage bonus.

You can build better setups for less than the cost of your armor rep alone.
Arcosian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-03-10 01:41:58 UTC
Voith wrote:
Grats Man, you just spent a few billion for a ship with 1 damage bonus.

You can build better setups for less than the cost of your armor rep alone.

LOL that repper is only 570mil and believe it or not that fit is overtanked for just about every mission. And if you are cheap you can get away with an imperial navy repper if you just dropped a heat sink for a hardener. Why you would do that IDK since on mission ships you should pimp the damage mods and the repper.

The paladin has 1 damage bonus tied to the marauder skill and a role damage bonus. If CCP gave it another damage bonus it would be way overpowered. The fit I posted gets 1000DPS and it's a conservative fit since I don't want a paper tank on it for some extra DPS only to lose it when the hampsters decide to rebel and crash the server.

But honestly if you are shelling out ~1bil ISK for a Pirate/Faction/marauder BS and you have ISK problems to where you need to T2 fit it should you even be flying one? Not to mention you say a well fit T1 BS can outclass a paladin and I'm curious as to what your definition of "outclass" is and to see what ship/fit you have in mind that isn't deadspace fit or "LOL conflagration T2 pulse fit."

I'm assuming the OP is looking for a mission fit for a Tachy Paladin and I gave him a relatively cheap and very effective one. And the whole setup is only ~2bill not a few bill as you claim and for a high-end mission ship that isn't too bad. But if you really want to get technical I only spent ISK on ammo, skillbooks, and rigs since I can sell the ship and mods and get my all ISK back.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-03-10 01:52:07 UTC
Voith wrote:
Grats Man, you just spent a few billion for a ship with 1 damage bonus.

You can build better setups for less than the cost of your armor rep alone.


Well, technically I haven't bought it yet. Also I'm pretty sure most of the sensible fits are under 2 bil, so there's no sense in using the plural there. The armor reps being discussed are in the 100m range (at least the ones I'm seriously considering).

If you look at my original setup the mids are expensive, but entirely replaceable with T2 with little adverse effect, and IN heat sinks run about 60m each. The repper runs 100-200m depending on which one is used. The T2 burst Aerator cost about 10m to make. I bet you, a fit could emerge that could be thrown together for about 1.2-1.4 billion. Unless you're claiming some T1 or navy faction ship is way awesomer, I don't think you're actually comparing my eventual fit to a cheaper fit. Now, I grant you, I can see a T2 Mach being potentially better, but that's for a different alt to explore. I will admit, I'm underwhelmed by the grid on the paladin, but such is life if you want to fit tachyons and not actually train shield tanking on that char.

This alt has Amarr BS 5 and Marauder 5, and T2 large lasers trained. This alt is now training science and industry skills and will do so for the forseeable future, so training another racial BS to 5 is out of the question. My main (the dude I'm posting with) will one day fly a mach. That day is quite distant. There's a specific reason this thread title refers to the paladin and tachyons specifically.
Arcosian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-03-10 02:32:37 UTC
Mavnas with the fit I posted you can switch out the repper with an Imperial Navy one the only problem is you will have a 600dps tank which might not be enough for the harder missions assuming you are running against sansha/bloods and you will need a PG implant.

For hard missions you can drop a heat sink for another hardener. That's about as cheap as it can get and still give you 1000 guns only DPS. However, I prefer a little safer setup with a better repper since you never know when you might hit a trigger or get DC.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-03-10 02:42:55 UTC
Arcosian wrote:
Mavnas with the fit I posted you can switch out the repper with an Imperial Navy one the only problem is you will have a 600dps tank which might not be enough for the harder missions assuming you are running against sansha/bloods and you will need a PG implant.

For hard missions you can drop a heat sink for another hardener. That's about as cheap as it can get and still give you 1000 guns only DPS. However, I prefer a little safer setup with a better repper since you never know when you might hit a trigger or get DC.


Fair, most of my missioning so far has been in Caldari easy-mode ships that don't really seem to need all that much tank while they're moving.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-03-10 02:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Arcosian wrote:
Voith wrote:
Grats Man, you just spent a few billion for a ship with 1 damage bonus.

You can build better setups for less than the cost of your armor rep alone.

LOL that repper is only 570mil and believe it or not that fit is overtanked for just about every mission. And if you are cheap you can get away with an imperial navy repper if you just dropped a heat sink for a hardener. Why you would do that IDK since on mission ships you should pimp the damage mods and the repper.

The paladin has 1 damage bonus tied to the marauder skill and a role damage bonus. If CCP gave it another damage bonus it would be way overpowered. The fit I posted gets 1000DPS and it's a conservative fit since I don't want a paper tank on it for some extra DPS only to lose it when the hampsters decide to rebel and crash the server.

But honestly if you are shelling out ~1bil ISK for a Pirate/Faction/marauder BS and you have ISK problems to where you need to T2 fit it should you even be flying one? Not to mention you say a well fit T1 BS can outclass a paladin and I'm curious as to what your definition of "outclass" is and to see what ship/fit you have in mind that isn't deadspace fit or "LOL conflagration T2 pulse fit."

I'm assuming the OP is looking for a mission fit for a Tachy Paladin and I gave him a relatively cheap and very effective one. And the whole setup is only ~2bill not a few bill as you claim and for a high-end mission ship that isn't too bad. But if you really want to get technical I only spent ISK on ammo, skillbooks, and rigs since I can sell the ship and mods and get my all ISK back.

You can get a 'geddon to 1k DPS. ****, a navy 'geddon will easily blow through 1k with Scorch.

Spending 2+ Billion to get 1k DPS does not impress me.

The reality of the situation is that the Paladin has low DPS, 2 useless bonuses and ****** grid.

You can't even fit a prop mod if you end up with a 100km gate mission.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-03-10 03:01:07 UTC
Voith wrote:
You can get a 'geddon to 1k DPS. ****, a navy 'geddon will easily blow through 1k with Scorch.


Scorch doesn't really hit the ranges I'm looking for. Also, you are aware the the navy geddon has fewer effective turrets than the paladin, right? And it can't fit Tachs.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-03-10 03:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Mavnas wrote:
Voith wrote:
You can get a 'geddon to 1k DPS. ****, a navy 'geddon will easily blow through 1k with Scorch.


Scorch doesn't really hit the ranges I'm looking for. Also, you are aware the the navy geddon has fewer effective turrets than the paladin, right? And it can't fit Tachs.

ROF > Damage

The 'Geddon can also drop a flight of Sentries.
4x2x1.25= 10
7x(1/(1-.25) = 9.33

2/3rds a gun. Roll

Should be able to hit out to ~50-60K Optimal easily

All V, guns only 450 vs 455. Paladin has 5 more DPS with only guns, with drones 614 vs 750 in favor of the 'Geddon.
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