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Continuing the war on Market Bots!
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Lady Spink
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-03-10 22:18:04 UTC
What q chief says!
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-11 19:33:33 UTC
Fango, a disclosure is neccecery by you, and frankly by anyone who posts.

You sound like you have 50, maybe 100 orders.
You say you have your jita alt updating orders when you sit and waiting for things, Well consider that pretty much everyone in jita has the same deal, just as you can update your orders, so can everyone else.
Bots only changes how fast you need to do it, the *SERIOUS* traders just sit by their screens and update their orders, again, and again, and again, this is how you make the best amount of isk with your game time.

I personaly know a person that updates his orders (all 237 of them) each day, 10 times a day. while most people don't have time for that(i know i don't), you cannot limit your competition by hurting others.

So far it just sounds like you're anti competition, bots included.

The solution has been offered and imo is the best one, Track down the top 500-1000 order modifiers in a given week, track down their login times, you found your bots.

Any other solution(increase fees, decrease modifications, change sale amounts) directly hurt your dedicated trader. just because YOU don't care about that, doesn't mean others are like you.

You wouldn't want to limit the amount of times guns can be fired, or how many times you can hit "analyze" for explorations, nor how many times you can jump through gates.(all of these are done by bots for courier, exploration farm and ratting).
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#23 - 2012-03-11 21:57:29 UTC
The suggestion of a cap on the order update limit as proposed in the first post would certainly limit my current activeties and playstyle.

But an elite MD taskforce to get bots reported with priorety sounds nice.

Still a CCP effort though.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-03-12 05:35:13 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:

Traders have great incentive to report bots. If CCP is serious about banning bots, then I have no doubt that traders will begin selling or buying 1 unit to find out the name of a character they suspect to be a bot and reporting it to CCP. There is currently an ingame option to Report ISK Spammer. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no simple way to report a suspected bot. In my opinion, the biggest thing that CCP could do to crack down on bots would be to introduce a quick option to Report Suspected Bot. Traders would immediately start reporting characters that update orders every 5 minutes, and CCP could investigate those flags through their own means to determine whether the character is a bot.


There's an option to report bots in game, FYI. It's not as easily visible as "Report ISK Spammer" which is pretty dumb, but it's there. After showinfo-ing a player, click on the "moar options" symbol in the upper left corner of the character information window, and there's a "Report Bot" option at the bottom of the dropdown list.

Yeah, this should be made easier to access, like just bringing up the contextual menu by right-clicking a player in your contacts or chat list. IMO.
Lucinda Hamu
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-03-12 08:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucinda Hamu
It strikes me that the OPs suggesiton of an upper limit would simply remove the advantage that more regular traders have over lazy traders (those who can't live on eve 24/7 i.e. me). I don't think thats fair. Its like asking CCP to remove weapon specialisation so that we all hit for less damage. Its not how EVE works.

In my opinion we simply need more proactive persecution of BOTS.


TheSmokingHertog wrote:
The suggestion of a cap on the order update limit as proposed in the first post would certainly limit my current activeties and playstyle.

But an elite MD taskforce to get bots reported with priorety sounds nice.

Still a CCP effort though.



As above.

In my opinion it would be easier to have a 'report bot' button. The problem for us is that CCP would need to take such a report seriously and I suspect they have better things to do.

Ajita al Tchar wrote:
[quote=Jake Andarius]
There's an option to report bots in game, FYI. It's not as easily visible as "Report ISK Spammer" which is pretty dumb, but it's there. After showinfo-ing a player, click on the "moar options" symbol in the upper left corner of the character information window, and there's a "Report Bot" option at the bottom of the dropdown list.


Interesting.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2012-03-12 10:43:07 UTC
Change the tax on changing a market order to be based on the final value of the order, not the change in value. This will ruin market botting and 0.01ing at a stroke, especially if it's stealth-patched in and the bot ownerss don't notice until their bots have spanked all their cash on taxes
Lucinda Hamu
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-03-12 13:46:16 UTC
Pheusia wrote:
Change the tax on changing a market order to be based on the final value of the order, not the change in value. This will ruin market botting and 0.01ing at a stroke, especially if it's stealth-patched in and the bot ownerss don't notice until their bots have spanked all their cash on taxes


You seem to be associating bots with 0.01 traders or suggesting that 0.01 traders are problems. With respect, I disagree with either assumption.

Also, if bot traders are making billions, wouldn't they, rather than normal traders, be best placed to be able to afford the increases?
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
#28 - 2012-03-13 20:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonkeep
As a relatively new trader, I have never realized how bad the bots effected the gameplay for traders. After the recent bot hunt by CCP, my profits were quadrupled. It was a quite a shock for me.

Unfortunately, it seems the bots are returning back. For the last 2-3 days, I am seeing more bot activities and my profits are going back to normal.

Anyway, I was wondering Wouldn't it be possible to implement a confirmation system of sort. Something like a CAPTCHA that will ask for response from the player to determine if the person is bot or not. Of course, it will not be realistic to ask this for every trade order/modification but it could be once ever 50 or 100 orders/modifications.

I, my self, would be very content with a system like that. Its better to enter a confirmation code once in a while than losing billions on the market.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-03-13 22:11:19 UTC
Q Chief wrote:
Well first off, you are just a bitter noob

Now all the haters are going to jump up and say I condone the use of bots. My response is, why of course I support the advancement of all forms of technology use. If there is no adequate enforcement of a soft rule then humans are going abuse it. This is CCP's responsibility to deal with, not the player base. Pure, plain and simple. Don't like it, then quit

Here is the kicker. You are all bitter because you are terrible at this game. Your excuse is 'well someone is botting so I can't win!' and as a result you want CCP to do something about it. The problem is that they can't fix your stupidity so anything they do will be futile. That is why they do nothing - you, and others like you, are just dumb cattle that provide content for the rest of us who can figure out how to the play the game.

So I am not going to tell you how to use these so called 'bots' to your advantage but it is there. Those in the know how - it is just like all other market trading activities, the best traders don't share their info or all you nupties will just copy and then the gig is up

Harden up or go back to wow you stupid noob. That goes for the rest of you noobs who can't figure it out as well. It's pathertic everytime we get a wave of ex-WoW players who think they can change things they don't like by just mass complaining.


ugh . . . this a discussion . . . please go back to crime and punishment for your rants . . .


Takemikazuki wrote:
Meh, if you want to combat bots - try doing that without ideas that relies on strange and hampering regulations of the market.



Yes I want to combat bots.
Yes this is the "best" idea I have that does not require CCP monitor the market for bots (which they seem to have no desire to do).
Since you obviously have better ideas, care to share them?


Johnny Frecko wrote:
Fango, a disclosure is neccecery by you, and frankly by anyone who posts.

You sound like you have 50, maybe 100 orders.
You say you have your jita alt updating orders when you sit and waiting for things, Well consider that pretty much everyone in jita has the same deal, just as you can update your orders, so can everyone else.
Bots only changes how fast you need to do it, the *SERIOUS* traders just sit by their screens and update their orders, again, and again, and again, this is how you make the best amount of isk with your game time.

I personaly know a person that updates his orders (all 237 of them) each day, 10 times a day. while most people don't have time for that(i know i don't), you cannot limit your competition by hurting others.

So far it just sounds like you're anti competition, bots included.

The solution has been offered and imo is the best one, Track down the top 500-1000 order modifiers in a given week, track down their login times, you found your bots.

Any other solution(increase fees, decrease modifications, change sale amounts) directly hurt your dedicated trader. just because YOU don't care about that, doesn't mean others are like you.

You wouldn't want to limit the amount of times guns can be fired, or how many times you can hit "analyze" for explorations, nor how many times you can jump through gates.(all of these are done by bots for courier, exploration farm and ratting).


I said in the OP that I am NOT a serious trader.
You mention that "serious traders" sit at their screens and update their orders again and again and again.
I believe that the reason that "serious traders" need to update their orders again and again and again is because they are fighting so many bots.

Note: this is my preference and I'm sure that everyone has their own preference.
I would prefer the market game to be about, Knowing what to buy/sell and where to buy/sell it. Knowing how the market moves and knowing how to take advantage of it. Experience in how the market works, not who can update their orders the most often . . .
I think that by limiting the amount of orders that can be changed (and that number is certainly up for discussion), we will move the market game from less of a click fest to more of a strategy.
Even today strategy is MORE IMPORTANT than updating orders. I think that the market would be even MORE FUN if it required less clicking and more planning. Obviously the people who like to just sit and .01isk instead of planning market strategies wouldn't like the change and their opinion is no more/less important than mine.


Pheusia wrote:
Change the tax on changing a market order to be based on the final value of the order, not the change in value. This will ruin market botting and 0.01ing at a stroke, especially if it's stealth-patched in and the bot ownerss don't notice until their bots have spanked all their cash on taxes


The down side of this plan. . .
The best way to combat this change is to list very small quantities (so your change fee is minimal) and then re-list when the item sells. Bots can do this much better than humans. Therefore this would just give bots an Advantage over humans and just makes the whole botting situation even worse
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#30 - 2012-03-14 03:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
LATEST NEWS:

The last remaining Major market bot in jita just went silent!
The orders on Implants just stopped updating every hour on the hour! Dig in boys, More for us!

P.S.
Im loving the new interface
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-03-18 16:25:49 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:

I said in the OP that I am NOT a serious trader.
You mention that "serious traders" sit at their screens and update their orders again and again and again.
I believe that the reason that "serious traders" need to update their orders again and again and again is because they are fighting so many bots.

Note: this is my preference and I'm sure that everyone has their own preference.
I would prefer the market game to be about, Knowing what to buy/sell and where to buy/sell it. Knowing how the market moves and knowing how to take advantage of it. Experience in how the market works, not who can update their orders the most often . . .
I think that by limiting the amount of orders that can be changed (and that number is certainly up for discussion), we will move the market game from less of a click fest to more of a strategy.
Even today strategy is MORE IMPORTANT than updating orders. I think that the market would be even MORE FUN if it required less clicking and more planning. Obviously the people who like to just sit and .01isk instead of planning market strategies wouldn't like the change and their opinion is no more/less important than mine.



You should look up a post I made a year ago on this topic and the legalization of order bots as 'executioners' I am for it because I too enjoy 'trading' and not 'updating orders'. And bot's are so easy to spot and exploit. I love when people use them.
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