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Capital ship tracking
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Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-03-09 05:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Valea Silpha wrote:
I do kind of agree about refitting, but that would also be a stealth nerf to carriers too, which is something that if anything needs to be made more powerful.

Why ? Because it means that you can't use the rolling refit/triage cycle that Rooks and Kings made famous (and awesome), neither could you use friendly carriers to refit your subcaps to fight the newly arrived enemies. If you didn't bring huge amounts of neuts and some smarties in your regular fleet, then you can't beat hostile caps by being clever, you have to break triage tanks head on, and thats bullshit for a small or medium sized gang.

So make it a titan only thing maybe ? Who knows.


Titan / SC pilots would say the same thing about combat-refitting that you're saying as (or in defense of) elite-PvP carrier pilots-- "we need to be able to combat-refit to counter blobs." Why is it fair to inflict this on one group of players but not others?


Valea Silpha wrote:

But no, titan tracking does not need to be nerfed.

It's funny to me that people complain to be honest. Titans are the biggest baddest most expensive things in game, and you want them to be unable to do anything except kill 1 carrier, portal things and be a less effective dread ? How is that even faintly fair ?

From the mechanics stand point, why should titans not be able to hit stuff ? Seriously ? Why not ? Other than because RAIDEN have been rocking goons with their titans I mean ?

Its an application of the tracking system that works in every other respect. If titans can't hit BS and BC sized targets ever, then I want large guns to totally miss my frigate under ALL circumstance. Not at zero transveral, not at their optimal, not at anything ever.

Its the same proposition here


I don't think anyone's proposing that titans should NEVER BE ABLE TO HIT ANYTHING SMALLER THAN AN IHUB EVER. I'm certainly not. I'm fine with titans hitting battleships as a given, and hitting battlecruisers and really poorly-flown cruisers while tracking-fit. In the current situation though its too easy for titans to kill cruisers and even light dictors with their guns. It makes them damn-near impossible to keep tackled, if nothing else.


Valea Silpha wrote:

If I had a video of my sniper tornado gang wrecking the hell out of a 100man frig gang people wouldn't be screaming nerf. They'd be saying 'LOL'.



Bad, bad analogy.

Running a sniper tornado gang is a bit more micro intensive-- you're zooming around, kiting things, and trying to keep your targets' transversals low. If the frigates catch up to you, you're hosed because you can't track them and their dps will quickly cut your more or less tankless sniping BCs to ribbons.

A titan blob, on the other hand, just cynos in, bounces into a nicely dispersed group, and then sits there blapping everything. If subcaps close in on them, it doesn't matter because either:

1. The subcaps are small enough to dodge titan guns (we're talking AB cruisers or something here) but can't do enough damage to kill a titan anyway (and they'll still slowly lose numbers as titans get lucky hits)

OR

2. The subcaps are big enough to do damage, but also big enough to be tracked and get obliterated in short order.

Not a very good comparison.
hioshi IV
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-03-09 08:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: hioshi IV
Ganthrithor wrote:
Bad, bad analogy.

Running a sniper tornado gang is a bit more micro intensive-- you're zooming around, kiting things, and trying to keep your targets' transversals low. If the frigates catch up to you, you're hosed because you can't track them and their dps will quickly cut your more or less tankless sniping BCs to ribbons.

A titan blob, on the other hand, just cynos in, bounces into a nicely dispersed group, and then sits there blapping everything. If subcaps close in on them, it doesn't matter because either:

1. The subcaps are small enough to dodge titan guns (we're talking AB cruisers or something here) but can't do enough damage to kill a titan anyway (and they'll still slowly lose numbers as titans get lucky hits)

OR

2. The subcaps are big enough to do damage, but also big enough to be tracked and get obliterated in short order.

Not a very good comparison.


Sry, but yours is the bad one.

And there's proof too. Just look at the recent scap losses of PL/NC. to -a-/solar.

Specially that one where PL lost a hel and wyv.
They had a titan blob packed up together, and -a-/solar had NO caps on the field and yet, they where able to remove shield from titans and do massive damage, including killing those two scaps.

How many they lost? little to few.

Why? -A- played smart.

a) they had enough dps to kill
b) they kept theyr transversal low
ontop of that, titans where fitted for tank, where unable to track them at all

Yes you may say that those 2 SCarriers disconnected and thus where killed, sure, but the titans where kept together bubbled, prevented from welping those scaps.

Titans dont just blap things wildly, it's like the old days of sniper BS's, where they had zero tank, sniped from 200km with tracking comps and tracking enhancers and 3 or 4 magstabs -zero- tank

They would rain pain on the hostiles, but if they warped in close, byebye sniper.

Honestly im just tierd of you guys crying a river for every single time someone attacks you or you attack someone and you cant break them. You just blob mindlessly and wish to win, witch happens alot, but when it fails -- TO THE THREADMOBILE you come.

Titans are FINE, if anything, they need a change in the DDD for a script, that allow's focused DDD on caps and a script for AoE ddd, and a drone bay, everything else is fine

Not been able to kill a sabre orbiting you at 15km is ridiculous

It's like having a BS tackled by a interceptor and is unable to kill it, have to call in friends .. but wait, the BS have a drone bay.. DOH
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-03-09 08:43:07 UTC
Supercaps should lose their disruptor/scrambler immunity so a day-old newbie in a Rifter can tackle one. It is impossible to justify built-in, penalty-free WCS on combat ships.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-09 08:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
hioshi IV wrote:

Sry, but yours is the bad one.

And there's proof too. Just look at the recent scap losses of PL/NC. to -a-/solar.

Specially that one where PL lost a hel and wyv.
They had a titan blob packed up together, and -a-/solar had NO caps on the field and yet, they where able to remove shield from titans and do massive damage, including killing those two scaps.

How many they lost? little to few.

Why? -A- played smart.

a) they had enough dps to kill
b) they kept theyr transversal low
ontop of that, titans where fitted for tank, where unable to track them at all

Yes you may say that those 2 SCarriers disconnected and thus where killed, sure, but the titans where kept together bubbled, prevented from welping those scaps.

Titans dont just blap things wildly, it's like the old days of sniper BS's, where they had zero tank, sniped from 200km with tracking comps and tracking enhancers and 3 or 4 magstabs -zero- tank

They would rain pain on the hostiles, but if they warped in close, byebye sniper.

Honestly im just tierd of you guys crying a river for every single time someone attacks you or you attack someone and you cant break them. You just blob mindlessly and wish to win, witch happens alot, but when it fails -- TO THE THREADMOBILE you come.

Titans are FINE, if anything, they need a change in the DDD for a script, that allow's focused DDD on caps and a script for AoE ddd, and a drone bay, everything else is fine

Not been able to kill a sabre orbiting you at 15km is ridiculous

It's like having a BS tackled by a interceptor and is unable to kill it, have to call in friends .. but wait, the BS have a drone bay.. DOH



I bolded the funny parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn2n0ZHURLg

Watch as 200 battlecruisers in a 500-meter, point-blank-range orbit get decimated by Titans, all of which are within 20km of each other (not spread out or "sniping from range" like battleships).

Your arguments, if you can call them that, flail around pretty uselessly. You say that combat-refitting doesn't need to be nerfed, but then point out that the whole reason using subcaps against whoever's titan ball worked is that the Titans were tank fit (and thus unable to track subcaps). You say "titans don't just blap everything," and are "like sniper BS, where if the hostiles close range on you, you're dead." Then a few lines below you say that "Titans not being able to blap Sabres that are orbiting them at 15km is ridiculous."

Sorry, I happen to disagree with you completely. There's no way in hell titans should be blapping Sabres that are orbiting them at 15km, and if you think this is how the game should work you can choke on frisbee and die. "It's like having a BS tackled by a interceptor and is unable to kill it" -- are you serious? Have you ever tried to kill an orbiting interceptor with battleship guns? [ASK] me about the time an autocannon mach in my fleet got tackled by an Ares. Not only was the automach unable to kill it (with drones or guns), but my sniping Oracle firing faction standard from ~100km with tracking scripts loaded was totally unable to hit it. Guns in EVE generally don't do a great job of blapping ships orders of magnitude smaller than their designed target-signatures, deal with it.

As I said earlier, I'm fine with Titans being able to hit subcaps. I think they should hit battleships easily (read: without tracking fits). They should be able to hit battlecruisers when configured with tracking fits. They should be able to hit badly flown cruisers with tracking fits, but not well-flown ones. Sabres and frigates should be nearly impossible for a Titan to hit, regardless of fit, unless the target is sitting stationary, 100km off the Titan, much like how battleship turrets won't do anything to a remotely-competently flown interceptor. If you think this is unreasonable, I don't really know what to say to you.
hioshi IV
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-03-09 10:14:49 UTC

notice how STANDING STILL most of your fleet is
no wonder they are getting blapped left and right
the guy filming was actually orbiting the rest where not for the most part

also: shield extender: INCREASED SIG
mwd: MASSIVE increase of SIG

and besides there where other titans further away, you claiming that the one been orbited at 500m was the one doing the blap

ur funny
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2012-03-09 10:34:51 UTC
hioshi IV wrote:

notice how STANDING STILL most of your fleet is
no wonder they are getting blapped left and right
the guy filming was actually orbiting the rest where not for the most part

also: shield extender: INCREASED SIG
mwd: MASSIVE increase of SIG

and besides there where other titans further away, you claiming that the one been orbited at 500m was the one doing the blap

ur funny



Notice how the GOALPOSTS keep on MOVING.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-03-09 18:53:04 UTC
hioshi IV wrote:

notice how STANDING STILL most of your fleet is
no wonder they are getting blapped left and right
the guy filming was actually orbiting the rest where not for the most part

also: shield extender: INCREASED SIG
mwd: MASSIVE increase of SIG

and besides there where other titans further away, you claiming that the one been orbited at 500m was the one doing the blap

ur funny


I dunno which video you're watching, but in the one I linked (other than the first couple of ships that get blapped while sitting still / loading grid) the whole swarm of ships sets up an orbit. You can tell by the way they're all moving around the target.

Also, I never specifically said that the titan being shot at was the one blapping all the subcaps, but if you notice, there are no titans further than 20km from the subcaps, and most are at 10-15km (and those ones are definitely blapping). Then again, to the guy who says titans should be soloing sabres at those ranges, this probably doesn't represent a problem.

Anyway, I'm not saying 200 hurricanes is the ideal way to fight Titans, but the video does show how easily Titans blap subcaps as well as the problem of combat-refitting (the Rag gets burned through shields, then fits an armor tank). I've already suggested what most people seem to think are a reasonable set of tracking capabilities for capital guns, so why don't you take your "but they can't hit closerange afterburning armor-tanked frigates-- it's ridiculous!" arguments somewhere else?
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