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Rant Over, All 4 racial BC 5 to replace current BC 5

Author
Shogun Archer
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-03-07 04:35:02 UTC
Well, I have BC at 5, so I'm gonna be one of the benefactors. I still do not agree with giving "free" skill points.

I could take my skill points that I have invested and gladlly put them in Gallente or Amarr BC.

See, I am arguing on principle, not upon self entitlement. The "Fair" way of handling it is just resetting those skill points invested. It's like that for every other racial ship type. (See BS and Cruiser).

All the whiners will be back in their pretty spam Drakes in little to no time anyway, don't worry.

Either way, It's not going to effect me.

If you run into more than 2 a**holes in a day, you should probably look in the mirror.

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-03-07 04:39:01 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Maybe they should.

If a system is altered it should be fair to all their customers, not just favouring a few.


If CCP wants to fix their mistakes that is fantastic. Punishing their customers is the wrong way to do it and luckily it looks like they realize this. If a few people are upset about this and ragequit over it they certainly won't be missed.




Punishing their customers?

People with BC V under the new proposed systems are being given about 3x PLEX worth of training for free (talking about time).
All their other existing customers are getting that added to their training times.

So either way they're punishing their customers for their mistake, although I fail to see it as a real mistake because it's been like it for so long.

More than likely it was introduced as it was because they wanted to cause the minimum disruption at the time destroyers and BCs were introduced.

Only fair way would be to reimburse the sp that was used so as it can be reused.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-03-07 04:54:32 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Maybe they should.

If a system is altered it should be fair to all their customers, not just favouring a few.


If CCP wants to fix their mistakes that is fantastic. Punishing their customers is the wrong way to do it and luckily it looks like they realize this. If a few people are upset about this and ragequit over it they certainly won't be missed.




Punishing their customers?

People with BC V under the new proposed systems are being given about 3x PLEX worth of training for free (talking about time).
All their other existing customers are getting that added to their training times.

So either way they're punishing their customers for their mistake, although I fail to see it as a real mistake because it's been like it for so long.

More than likely it was introduced as it was because they wanted to cause the minimum disruption at the time destroyers and BCs were introduced.

Only fair way would be to reimburse the sp that was used so as it can be reused.


Yes, if you can fly all battlecruisers now with perfect skills and then CCP removes that ability because they screwed up years ago when they added the non-racial battlecruiser skill then you are being punished for CCP's mistake. It would be unfair of them to diminish my ability to fly ships I currently can because they want to correct something that wasn't my fault.

There is literally no downside to how they are planning on doing this.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-03-07 04:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Maybe they should.

If a system is altered it should be fair to all their customers, not just favouring a few.


If CCP wants to fix their mistakes that is fantastic. Punishing their customers is the wrong way to do it and luckily it looks like they realize this. If a few people are upset about this and ragequit over it they certainly won't be missed.




Punishing their customers?

People with BC V under the new proposed systems are being given about 3x PLEX worth of training for free (talking about time).
All their other existing customers are getting that added to their training times.

So either way they're punishing their customers for their mistake, although I fail to see it as a real mistake because it's been like it for so long.

More than likely it was introduced as it was because they wanted to cause the minimum disruption at the time destroyers and BCs were introduced.

Only fair way would be to reimburse the sp that was used so as it can be reused.


Yes, if you can fly all battlecruisers now with perfect skills and then CCP removes that ability because they screwed up years ago when they added the non-racial battlecruiser skill then you are being punished for CCP's mistake. It would be unfair of them to diminish my ability to fly ships I currently can because they want to correct something that wasn't my fault.

There is literally no downside to how they are planning on doing this.




For you (I'm alright Jack) there is no downside if they go ahead as they've talked about, for newer players and those not trained BCs to V yet there is.
Shogun Archer
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-03-07 05:05:13 UTC
Just keep your hands offa my stack...

If you run into more than 2 a**holes in a day, you should probably look in the mirror.

Ocih
Space Mermaids
#46 - 2012-03-07 05:11:36 UTC
Shogun Archer wrote:
Well, I have BC at 5, so I'm gonna be one of the benefactors. I still do not agree with giving "free" skill points.

I could take my skill points that I have invested and gladlly put them in Gallente or Amarr BC.

See, I am arguing on principle, not upon self entitlement. The "Fair" way of handling it is just resetting those skill points invested. It's like that for every other racial ship type. (See BS and Cruiser).

All the whiners will be back in their pretty spam Drakes in little to no time anyway, don't worry.

Either way, It's not going to effect me.


Same, all four of my accounts have BC to 5. Damnation/ Damnation/ Nighthawk/ Astarte is my epeen undock squad but I have no idea what anyone is talking about here.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2012-03-07 05:12:52 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
For you (I'm alright Jack) there is no downside if they go ahead as they've talked about, for newer players and those not trained BCs to V yet there is.

…and yet, for newer players to get into Command Ships (the one thing in the game that actually requires BC V) will actually become easier with this change — a lot easier if they want all the CSes.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-03-07 05:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ladie Harlot
Tippia wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
For you (I'm alright Jack) there is no downside if they go ahead as they've talked about, for newer players and those not trained BCs to V yet there is.

…and yet, for newer players to get into Command Ships (the one thing in the game that actually requires BC V) will actually become easier with this change — a lot easier if they want all the CSes.


Yes this is what all the hurf-blurfers are missing. For new players it will take longer to crosstrain to all battlecruisers but it will take less time for them to get into other ships like command ships and even capitals.

You idiots need to stop focusing on the one tiny aspect of this change that you think is unfair and look at the bigger picture. Then be amazed at how CCP wants to do all of this and not screw over vets at the same time.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#49 - 2012-03-07 05:31:23 UTC
On the contrary, Racial Battlecruiser V will be the same rank as regular Battlecruiser V, meaning in order to be able to fly all battlecruisers you will need to invest 4 times more skillpoints.

I believe that since Battlecruisers and Destroyers are essentially bigger versions of Cruisers and Frigates respectively, it should not take as long to train as Cruiser and Frigates.

The best solution is to make Racial Battlecruisers a rank 2 skill and Racial destroyers a rank 1 skill. Make training all 4 racials to V take the same time and SP to get the original Battlecruiser or Destroyer to V.

That way everyone will benefit.

Those who train Battlecruiser or Destroyer will not be affected in any negative way and newer players will not have to invest more time and money to be able to fly all Racial Battlecruisers and Destroyers with their respective T2 counterparts than the older players did.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-03-07 05:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Soon Shin wrote:
On the contrary, Racial Battlecruiser V will be the same rank as regular Battlecruiser V, meaning in order to be able to fly all battlecruisers you will need to invest 4 times more skillpoints.
Yes. So what?

Being able to fly all battlecruisers at max skill isn't really something new players need to worry about — that's one of those long-term goals that you will get to eventually. What new players need to do, now, in the past, and after this change, is to specialise, not try to do everything. This change actually lets them do that a whole lot better than they could before.

What CCP is doing here is increasing the granularity of ship skills. They are cutting things up in more discrete decision points and paths for you to take. You no longer have to specialise in AFs to specialise in HACs to specialise in CSes — you can just do one of those and the others will be completely irrelevant to your effort. This has the added benefit of smartening the game up from it's previous dumbed-down state: the better you plan your path, the quicker you can become effective at what you choose to do. Plan it poorly, and you'll suffer for it.

Yes, doing everything will be a (very) tiny bit more costly, but isn't that the way it should be? You will not have to invest 4× more skillpoints for the simple reason that the BC skill is not all you need to train, and the one thing you actually need BC V for has been made vastly cheaper than it currently is. One specific choice — being a jack of all trades, master of none all — will require more training, but so very little more compared to everything else you must train that it makes fuckall difference. It's a rounding-error. Everything else will require less. This benefits old and new players alike.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#51 - 2012-03-07 05:42:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
On the contrary, Racial Battlecruiser V will be the same rank as regular Battlecruiser V, meaning in order to be able to fly all battlecruisers you will need to invest 4 times more skillpoints.
Yes. So what?

Being able to fly all battlecruisers at max skill isn't really something new players need to worry about — that's one of those long-term goals that you will get to eventually. What new players need to do, now, in the past, and after this change, is to specialise, not try to do everything. This change actually lets them do that a whole lot better than they could before.

What CCP is doing here is increasing the granularity of ship skills. They are cutting things up in more discrete decision points and paths for you to take. You no longer have to specialise in AFs to specialise in HACs to specialise in CSes — you can just do one of those and the others will be completely irrelevant to your effort. Yes, doing everything will be a (very) tiny bit more costly, but isn't that the way it should be? You will not have to invest 4× more skillpoints for the simple reason that the BC skill is not all you need to train, and the one thing you actually need BC V for has been made vastly cheaper than it currently is.

One specific choice — being a jack of all trades, master of none all — will require more training, but so very little more compared to everything else you must train that it makes fuckall difference. It's a rounding-error. Everything else will require less. This benefits old and new players alike.


By your argument we should Racialize everything.

Lets have Amarr Heavy Assault Ships, Caldari Marauders, Gallente Interceptors.

Lets make newer players train more when they want to reach higher end of multiple ships.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2012-03-07 05:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Soon Shin wrote:
By your argument we should Racialize everything.
No, that would defeat the purpose and is, in fact, besides the point. Doing that would not make specialising any faster. By my argument, we should actually “un-racialise” everything and go for more role skills instead, but that would break the RP and will never happen…

The part you're (still) missing is that the really big change here is the removal of cross-tier prerequisites and the improvements this will cause — this is counterbalanced by the introduction of a strictly linear base hull progression because some skills unlocked a bit too much.

Quote:
Lets make newer players train more when they want to reach higher end of multiple ships.
Why? That's almost exactly the opposite of what they're doing. Also, stop hiding behind the “new players” cover — new players will have it a whole lot easier with this change. Old players might be a bit inconvenienced, but meh, at that point, the extra time is insignificant on the scale of things anyway.
Riggs Droput
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-03-07 05:57:11 UTC
We should all be glad that they are announcing this in advance. Now is the time to push your BC and Dessy to 5. Prepare for the day of change and you will not be left out.

If you want to really be prepared, push all your frig skills to 4 and all your cruiser skills to 4 and BC and Dessy to 4. That way you will be able to benefit like the rest of us who have already trained all our skills when they put in racial BC and Dessy. If you have extra time take BC or Dessy to 5.

I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees

Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#54 - 2012-03-07 06:03:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
By your argument we should Racialize everything.
No, that would defeat the purpose and is, in fact, besides the point. Doing that would not make specialising any faster. By my argument, we should actually “un-racialise” everything and go for more role skills instead, but that would break the RP and will never happen…

The part you're (still) missing is that the really big change here is the removal of cross-tier prerequisites and the improvements this will cause — this is counterbalanced by the introduction of a strictly linear base hull progression because some skills unlocked a bit too much.

Quote:
Lets make newer players train more when they want to reach higher end of multiple ships.
Why? That's almost exactly the opposite of what they're doing. Also, stop hiding behind the “new players” cover — new players will have it a whole lot easier with this change. Old players might be a bit inconvenienced, but meh, at that point, the extra time is insignificant on the scale of things anyway.


I have BC V, so its not a big issue for me. I'm not annoyed if they ease the requisite for the ships I already can fly, since many of the required skills comes useful in way.

What I'm concerned is this:

To get command ships, not only do you require Battlecruisers to V, but you also need the Racial Cruiser to V.

As long as you have racial cruisers to V and BC V you can fly the respective command ships.

The issue becomes when you want to fly more than one racial commandship.

You will not only have to train Racial cruiser to V, but now the Racial Battlecruiser to V for each racial commandship.

This drastically adds more training time for each Race you want to fly for compared to the current system.

Oh and Tech 1 Battlecruisers require Racial Cruisers as a requisite to fly, meaning that it will take longer to fly multiple racial

battlecruisers.

So CCP will have to make a drastic skill requirement change in many of the ships, and CCP really doesn't have a big history is making those kind of requisite changes of such scale.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2012-03-07 06:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Soon Shin wrote:
To get command ships, not only do you require Battlecruisers to V, but you also need the Racial Cruiser to V.
No. Probably not — that's the exact thing they're trying to remove. More likely, to get command ships you will need Racial Battlecruiser V instead of Racial Cruiser V. See my break-down here of what the old and new systems will look like if they actually do what they say they're going to do.

They're cutting out a huge chunk of prereqs, and exchanging the hull prereqs to match the actual ship you intend to fly.
Quote:
Oh and Tech 1 Battlecruisers require Racial Cruisers as a requisite to fly, meaning that it will take longer to fly multiple racial battlecruisers.
They already have that prerequisite.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-03-07 06:44:41 UTC
Indy Rider wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Indy Rider wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:


For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?


Thats what I want to know. Though personally I find it more likely that in that case you wouldn't get Gallente BC.


Had you read the blog

"Due to the way nested requirements work, it would also mean pilots would not need to re-train anything to fly Battleships or Cruisers."


Yes. The part I'm not entirely clear on, is for example, consider that someone never had the pre reqs Minmatar Frigate and Cruiser to the required levels to fly the Hurricane in the first place, yet had BC5 to fly the Harbinger. Therefore, they couldn't fly a Hurricane today, so they have no reason to get given Minmatar Battlecruiser V. It seems, with BC5 people will get racial BC5, they've also said no need to retrain, what if they never trained those skills in the first place?


I would like to have this clarified as well.

My guess is that you will just get all racial BC skills V, but after all you can't fly the actual ship with just the BC skill since the ship it self also seems to require (as you can see in their show info - prerequisites) each specific racial frigate/cruiser skill to be trained. If you already had the needed frigate/cruiser skills, you can fly it. If you didn't then you'll have to train those before you can get into a BC.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#57 - 2012-03-07 07:06:59 UTC
Skills:
If you can fly a perfect hurricane today but have no Gallente skills then you will still be able to fly a myrmidon tomorrow. This is what they mean by nested requirements. The only ones that matter are the ones that have the least amount of indentation on the prereq page. These kind of paradoxes are already possible through being podded (for instance losing battleship 5 won't stop you from flying a carrier) as well as in the form of "dev ships" like the Polaris which requires itself at 5 to be trained.

What is fair:
Technically the most fair thing to do is to give back what was trained, 1:1. What is good business, however, is to give everyone the 4 skills to the same level they had the old skill. If you're going to force a change on customers, give them the one they benefit most from. Sure this change will favor people that had the skill trained higher, but it the alternative is removing something from the customer that they had before and giving them less. Prime examples are the ones in this thread that actually can use all 4 races' command ships. BC 5 is a rather lengthy skill and in the worst case scenario you'll have people getting kick out of ships that they were previously able to fly. If they reimburse the SP 1:1 then to avoid these cases they would have to allow people to allocate the SP into the new skill before logging in. Even then a lot of problems could be caused and you're going to have a mountain of petitions for ships that got blown up or stolen cause someone was forcefully ejected from it. Additionally you'll have people rage quiting over having their BC (which could be potentially the largest ship they own) taken from them because they no longer could fly it upon logging in.

Bottom line is, the alternative is unfair because it would remove things from the player that was not the result of game mechanics or otherwise part of normal gameplay. There really isn't a middle ground here so go with the one that gives players a net gain, not a loss. And besides, no one has anything to lose if they all get the racial BC skills to their current BC level.

The Drake is a Lie

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#58 - 2012-03-07 07:07:06 UTC
I found and read the Dev blog and first, he is thinking out loud. None of this seems to even be in development.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129

So to me the question seems to be, how do we "nerf proof" for the change?

Aside from that, this is bigger than just BC5 and command ship because its true for all the ships in EVE. I can fly Every frigate in the game because once you train interceptor to 4, you have only to train frigate 5 in the other races. The same is true of Logi, recon, everything up to CS. It's even true to Titan. We train requisites in one race and the skills for the other ones are relative to the ship lines. I mean, how far do they want to take this is the question? DDO is DDO. Will we see Amarr DDO? Amarr Jump Portal Generation?

If they restrict it to Command Ship it makes Command Ship out of line with the other specialist ships of EVE. If CS was just his example, this is much larger than "I can fly a Claymore because I can fly an Abso and a Nighthawk and trained cruiser in Gall and matar to 4".

On a final note I can say no matter what they do, I learned from the WTZ change that there aren't any wasted skills. All my mains have 6 mill Nav because Nav skills weren't a liesure group pre WTZ. New capsuleers don't "need" to train Nav 6 mill and it gives Vets an advantage by complacency requisite changes. It isn't something I will worry about tbh.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Clyde ElectraGlide
Emara Entertainment Inc.
#59 - 2012-03-07 07:07:50 UTC
I like that CCP are doing this. Destroyers and battlecruisers having one central skill for all of them would have made sense longer ago when there was just one ship in each category for each race. Now that both ships play a bigger role, especially battlecruisers, it makes sense to do away with these and introduce racial skills for each type of battlecruiser. Everyone that already has Destroyers and Battlecruisers trained will get the same level for all races' battlecruisers that they had, along with making it easier for newer players to get into other ships as previously mentioned, so I don't see any bad points to this change.

In Need of a New Signature

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2012-03-07 07:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ioci wrote:
So to me the question seems to be, how do we "nerf proof" for the change?
Train BC V and Dessy V before the change.

Quote:
If they restrict it to Command Ship it makes Command Ship out of line with the other specialist ships of EVE. If CS was just his example, this is much larger than "I can fly a Claymore because I can fly an Abso and a Nighthawk and trained cruiser in Gall and matar to 4".
How do you mean? The way I read it, they're doing the exact opposite: they're removing those restrictions — Command Ships will be to BCs what, say, Logistics is to Cruisers: a simple “role skill” that has its own, quite separate, set of prereqs that have nothing to do with the hull you're flying, and the ships themselves simply have both the “hull skill” and the “role skill” as their prereqs.

Caldari Frigate V + Interceptor = you can fly the Crow and Raptor.
Caldari Cruiser V + Logistic = you can fly the Basilisk.
Caldari Battlecruiser V + Command Ship = you can fly the Nighthawk and Vulture.

They're stripping out all the other ˆirrelevant” prereqs (e.g. Cruiser V for the actual CS ships, and BC V for the CS “role skill”) and making it easier to precisely pick what you want to fly. Command ships are kind of special in this regard due to the silly mess of prereqs they have, and from what I understand, it's exactly that that they want to remove and make all ship classes work the same. Similarly, it sounds like they're removing the Cruiser prereq for the BC hulls (i.e. you no longer have to have Caldari Cruiser III to fly the Drake, you just need Caldari BC II; likewise, the Cormorant only requires Caldari Dessi I, rather than Caldari Frigate III).