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Warning Forums are going to Explode. New Dev Blog on Skill Training and Ship Balance.

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Liam Mirren
#121 - 2012-03-07 09:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Tippia wrote:
…also, I can't help noticing (and laughing at) how many people in the feedback thread seem to have completely forgotten about these things called “support skills” and “secondary prerequisites”. The last five pages (at the time of reading) are full of “onoz, new players have to train for 4× as long as vets! unfair!”, never mind that the bulk of the training time is not in the ship skills but in… well… everything else, and that some of that “everything else” is actually being removed.

Eg, removing the redundant prereqs (such as spaceship command appearing multiple times all over the place) on the trusty old Nighthawk we have the following prereq list:

Caldari Cruiser V (×5)
     Caldari Frigate IV (×2)
Command Ships I (×8)
     Battlecruisers V (×6)
     Warfare Link Specialist IV (×6)
          Leadership V (×1)
     Spaceship Command V (×1)
Heavy Assault Ship IV (×6)
     Assault Ships IV (×4)
          Engineering V (×1)
          Mechanic V (×1)
     Weapon Upgrades V (×2)
          Gunnery II (×1)

Under the new scheme, the [racial] battlecruisers skill will replace the [racial] cruiser skill, and you will have to train four of them (rank 6 skills, ogosh) to get all field CSes — onoz! Or is it…? What will the new prereq tree look like?

Caldari Battlecruiser V (×6)
     Caldari Cruiser IV (×5)
          Caldari Frigate IV (×2)
Command Ships I (×6)
     Warfare Link Specialist IV (×6)
          Leadership V (×1)
     Spaceship Command V (×1)

…and that's it. The key part of the prereq shuffle that seems to be overlooked by many is the removal of those cross-tier prerequisites — HACs no longer nead assault frigates; CSes no longer need HACs and Logi. So the poor newbie who now has to to train four battlecruiser skills instead of one, (that's 3 rank-6 skills or 4.6M SP) also doesn't have to train four cruiser skills to V (saving 3.3M SP by just taking them to lvl IV), and doesn't have to train HACs IV, AS IV, Engy V, Mech V, WU V (saving another 1.9M SP). All in all, those chunks cut out saves the new player 5,661,360 SP that he doesn't have to train compared to the current system, in exchange for having to train an additional 4,608,000 SP to get all four battlecruiser skills. It's been a while since I took a maths class, but I don't recall ever seeing “one million less” be the same as “four times more”.

And that's just for the field command ship side — never mind what happens if we include the fleet command bit and have to include all the Logi skills. The buff to the old adage of “specialise to catch up faster” is quite significant…


Exactly, as I stated earlier: less idiotic and more logical.


From an RP pov I hope we can turn down getting the racial Destroyer/BC skills so we don't end up with all 4 trained. I know this sounds dumb but this char only flies Caldari, on purpose, and having non-Caldari skills on my list makes it look wrong in my eyes. As I see it one should only get the replacement racial skill if you have the prereq for it, ie racial cruiser 3 for BCs. I know it's anal nitpicking, but still.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Sevena Black
The Black Redemption
#122 - 2012-03-07 10:09:59 UTC
Adding racials to generic skills makes sense if you look at them as a bigger class of ship. I never did to be honest. The way I see it both destroyers and battlecruisers are specialized ships based on frigates and cruisers. Their slot layout and basic advantage (more firepower) seemed to support that. Then again, they are in fact bigger so....

I do believe this is dumbing down EVE tho. Not for the reasons already mentioned. If things get implemeted the way they're suggesting it now, CCP will decide how to use a certain hull by defining its slots, bonusses etc. I understand that's already largely the case, but this seems to be a bit uncreative. I also think it will increase the problem of useless hulls. The more defined its roles are, the bigger the chance that role is not really desirable / optimal. Which will lead to an unused hull.

I always liked the fact that t1 is a general ship, t2 is a specialty and t3 were flexible. More t3 would make me very happy.
RaTTuS
BIG
#123 - 2012-03-07 10:10:24 UTC
I would still have the Capital tree needing BS 5
but apart from that .... Meh - makes sense

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Oggat
The Adam's Family
#124 - 2012-03-07 10:15:44 UTC
Noobs in Command ships. What could possibly go wrong?
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#125 - 2012-03-07 10:26:00 UTC
These upcomming changes will be brilliant! it will make the game so much more rich! you guys should realize that... sure it sucks if you want to fly all 4 races of battlecruisers with only training that one skill, but really it should aways have been a racial skill like the cruisers and frigs.. but that is honestly the smallest change!!!

TIERICIDE IS COMMING!!! and this is much welcomed, we are talking about more tech 1 ships becoming more useful, instead of having the artificial bounderies installed on them (less ehp, less slots) just because they are suppose to be a lower tier than the frig/cruiser above it...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#126 - 2012-03-07 10:27:20 UTC
Dumb and pointless.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#127 - 2012-03-07 10:29:07 UTC
Oggat wrote:
Noobs in Command ships. What could possibly go wrong?

Does “robbing them blind by emptying their wallets in a single blow” count as wrong? P

Anyone who wants to fly a CS as an actual command ship will no longer be a newbie… (but then again, n00b and newbie are quite different things).
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2012-03-07 10:33:02 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
The dumbing-down of EVE marches on.



Its interesting that any meaningless change is considered as dumbing-down..

Not sure what pro-elite skill one needs to set-up and skill-queue, but..
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#129 - 2012-03-07 10:53:02 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Its interesting that any meaningless change is considered as dumbing-down..
Nah. The interesting thing is how any change where the smart player can get ahead faster, better, with less effort than the dumb one, and where the dumb ones can't figure out how to make bank from it before it even comes out is classified as dumbing-down.

It's the EVE version of Dunning-Kruger, in a way… P
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2012-03-07 10:58:29 UTC
Been looking at this change and something popped out to me

Currently its this when you skill.

Racial Cruiser 1 -> Assault Ship -> Heavy Assault Ship

Then you only need

Racial Cruiser 2 -> Unlocked HAC
Racial Cruiser 3 -> Unlocked HAC
Racial Cruiser 4 -> Unlocked HAC

And you have the next racial HAC

What I am wondering though...

Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 1 Assault Ship-> Racial 1 Heavy Assault Ship
Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 2 Assault Ship-> Racial 2 Heavy Assault Ship
Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 3 Assault Ship-> Racial 3 Heavy Assault Ship
Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 4 Assault Ship-> Racial 3 Heavy Assault Ship

They are not going to add individual Racial T2 skill books ? Cause that would lengthen my training Ugh as my plan was already set to get smaller ships out of the way this year and if T2 skll books don't carry over requiring more skill training for individual Racial Heavy Assault Ship to 5 x4...I am out, just don't care anymore cause my plans got changed which I had already set in motion a couple of months ago.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-03-07 11:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.

If they are intent on splitting the BC skill and specializing the racial ships more... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.

Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Aine Ni
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-03-07 11:06:28 UTC
Racial frigate 1 -> Racial destroyer 1 -> Racial cruiser 1 -> Assault Ship -> Heavy Assault Ship
Racial frigate 2 -> Racial destroyer 2 -> Racial cruiser 2 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship
Racial frigate 3 -> Racial destroyer 3 -> Racial cruiser 3 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship
Racial frigate 4 -> Racial destroyer 4 -> Racial cruiser 4 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#133 - 2012-03-07 11:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aqriue wrote:
They are not going to add individual Racial T2 skill books ?
Doesn't seem like it. Instead, by the sound of it, they'll refine all T2 ships to follow the same pattern: [racial hull size skill] V + [role skill] I …and those role skills will no longer require any other ship skills — they'll just be a bunch of skills that are germane to the role.

Previously, for the HACs in your example we had:

[racial] Cruiser V
    [racial] Frigate IV
Heavy Assault Ship I
    Assault Ships IV
        Engineering V
        Mechanic V
    Weapon Upgrades V
        Gunnery II
    Spaceship Command V

Now, it will (most likely) be:

[racial] Cruiser V
    [racial] Destroyer IV
        [racial] Frigate IV
Heavy Assault Ship I
    Weapon Upgrades V
        Gunner II
    Spaceship Command V

So sure, when you want the other HACs, you have to train those frigate, destroyer, and cruiser skills for the new race (and the weapons, tank and other equipment to go with them, of course), but you no longer have to go for those Assault Frigates, and with that skill no longer in your queue, you can start asking yourself if you even want to bother with Frigates V (after all, since you no longer need the AF skill, you won't “waste” it if you don't also max out Frigates).

It goes from being
     Racial frigate 1 → AF & Racial Cruiser 1 → HAC → Unlocks ships 1a, 1b.
     Racial frigate 2 → Racial Cruiser 2 → Unlocks ships 2a, 2b.
to
     Racial frigate 1 → Racial Destroyer 1 → Racial Cruiser 1 → HAC → Unlocks ships 1a, 1b
     Racial frigate 2 → Racial Destroyer 2 → Racial Cruiser 2 → Unlocks ships 2a, 2b
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2012-03-07 11:22:18 UTC
That means I need to stop my training for lvl 5 GayCruiser and get my lvl 5 Destroyer done just incase.

I am one of those that started my training with all frigs to lvl 5 and then cruisers with all support skills to lvl 5.

Extensive cross training, very little BS skills right now.

Like I said previously, I don't mind the refocus, I would prefer a complete reset of my SP so I can refocus my SP if that was the case.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2012-03-07 11:25:25 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.

If they are intent on splitting the BC skill and specializing the racial ships more... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.

Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance.



In principle why not, but in practice, many people would use it to get fotm ships and refine those mistakes they made way back when.

It would also mean some guys could respec and get into a titan right away and we don't need that!
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2012-03-07 11:28:01 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.

If they are intent on splitting the BC skill and specializing the racial ships more... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.

Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance.



In principle why not, but in practice, many people would use it to get fotm ships and refine those mistakes they made way back when.

It would also mean some guys could respec and get into a titan right away and we don't need that!


I did not consider that, only have 25mil SP myself so not sure if that would be enough for Titan not that I have the isk or care for one anyway.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Mersault
Blue Nine Industries
#137 - 2012-03-07 11:33:40 UTC
Lazy bitter vet checking in o7

I don't care some of the pre-reqs for ships I now fly have been dropped that I had to train. *shrug* This does make it easier for new people to access specific T2 ships they want to fly. This is a good thing imho.

Really looking forward to the removal of the tier system and seeing some interesting new load outs on rarely used Tech 1 ships.

As for what to do with skills, my solution would be if you have every race at 5 you still have every race at 5, if you have two races at 4 you still have two races at 4 etc

If you never trained dessie and fly cruisers, you magically get the dessie 4 skill for your race or races of cruisers.

Simples.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#138 - 2012-03-07 11:39:21 UTC
FIX ships first.

Cant imagine that im in Gallente or amarr BC ONLY !!

My options are:

Brutix and Myrmidon - pathethic

or

Harbringer or Prophecy - pathetic

Yeah ... I will be great addition to any fleet .... pfffffff

Its useless. Now we are almost only flying in Minmatar or Caldari. Non capacitor shooting weapons systems FTW. And shield based coz shield is also FTW :)

Guys think about ships. CCP is doing this coz want MORE OF YOUR TIME (more euros and dollars) with minimal effort on Their side. pfffffffffffff
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-03-07 12:47:07 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
FIX ships first.

Cant imagine that im in Gallente or amarr BC ONLY !!

My options are:

Brutix and Myrmidon - pathethic

or

Harbringer or Prophecy - pathetic

Yeah ... I will be great addition to any fleet .... pfffffff

Its useless. Now we are almost only flying in Minmatar or Caldari. Non capacitor shooting weapons systems FTW. And shield based coz shield is also FTW :)

Guys think about ships. CCP is doing this coz want MORE OF YOUR TIME (more euros and dollars) with minimal effort on Their side. pfffffffffffff


AHHH PANIC!!!

Take a deep breath and read what CCP said. If you can fly it now, you can fly it after any change. While its not a much needed change, if its taking the time of a couple of designers to balance it up and is good for the long term health of the game then its probably good to do it now.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#140 - 2012-03-07 14:47:13 UTC
There will be much tears over this change. I keep looking at the charts, tilting my head on the side, and try to work out if it will actually be better or not.

Removal of tiers; yeah probably a good idea.
Messing with Skill progression; smells like SWG

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com