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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
Korbin Dallaz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1701 - 2012-03-09 23:49:18 UTC
So my very first toon was minmatar. I started training minmatar because that's what I was and I did not know any better. I don't PvP and I don't like PvP. When I first found out that Minmatar ships were supposed to be ideal for PvP I was pissed. Very shortly after that I realized that this is not WoW and I could cross train so I did. I trained up the Drake and if served me well, I was able to run level 4's in it.

After my skills got better I realized that all the training in the world was not going to do anything to improve the DPS of the drake or reduce the 4 hours it took me to run some missions.

So then I flew the Raven but was still a little unhappy with the DPS. Every one told me that Marauders were the ultimate mission runners so I looked into them and what I found was disappointing. I saw 4 ships from 4 different races and all 4 had rep amount bonuses. No caldari / amarr resist bonus? No Galenete drone boat? All 4 ships have very similar stats and there really is not much of style difference on how you fight or run missions in them. Yes I trained the Vargur due to the falloff and tracking bonus but I know plenty of people that are just as happy in the Kronos or Paladin and you see Golems at every mission hub.

I honestly don't have an issue with Minmatar ships being the best at PvP and I am a hard core mission runner. If the minmatar ships are the best then train them. You can be in a rifter in a matter of days. But the fact is that all kinds of ships are flown in PvP and all kinds win. Pirate faction ships are clearly better than empire faction ships but you still see people fly the empire race's ships in PvP. This is not WoW. You are not locked into a race or a class. If Minmatar ships are better in PvP then cross train them. That's the beauty of this game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1702 - 2012-03-10 00:09:49 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
One alternative to making Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills racial is to make the ships dual-skill. Put half the bonuses on racial frig / cruiser and half on the core skill. It still leaves some oddities, but helps mitigate the current issues with Battlecruiser skill. Essentially, BC becomes a "role" skill.

(I assume this is coupled with other ship rebalance stuff like removing tiers)

While true this is an alternative, it's more convoluted than either the proposed or leaving things as is, but it does leave me with a question. Is the reason CCP decided to propose this related to the number of hulls currently receiving bonuses from the BC skill? At first I understand there was only 1 BC per race thus a whole new racial skill that was part of the progression chain may have seemed less than justified. With 12 tech 1 BC's maybe it was time to change that. but then, that does nothing to explain destroyers...
Torothanax
#1703 - 2012-03-10 00:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Torothanax
Currently I can fly all the (sub capital) tech 1 ships with max skill, minus Gal battle ship, which is at level 4. I can fly most tech 2 ships with max skill. I have all the tech 2 weapons systems maxed or near maxed for these ships. I can fly just about whatever I want whenever I want. Took me a while to get here.

I understand that you want to balance and move forward with the game and improve the ships. Getting rid of tiers is awesome, been saying it for years. BUT I'd rather not have to train more skills to do what I can do right now. Been plenty of that all ready. Keep that in mind when you go about adding, splitting, and refunding skills and skill points.
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#1704 - 2012-03-10 02:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost True
I think that it'll be ok, if you just reimbush an SP from current Battlecruisers and Destroyers.

Because:
1. It's fair, instead of huge giveaway of SP for those 6 free skills, while new players will have to train them
2. It's ok, we still will be able to fly a favorite Command Ship, and for those who can fly all 4 races... well, it's not such a big deal for them to to train 3 more skills. (i'am one of them)...

I duuno, why there is so much whine about that: if you so worried about your training time then you don't need to train another races in near future anyway.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Kvetha Fricai
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1705 - 2012-03-10 03:37:53 UTC
Torothanax wrote:
Currently I can fly all the (sub capital) tech 1 ships with max skill, minus Gal battle ship, which is at level 4. I can fly most tech 2 ships with max skill. I have all the tech 2 weapons systems maxed or near maxed for these ships. I can fly just about whatever I want whenever I want. Took me a while to get here.

I understand that you want to balance and move forward with the game and improve the ships. Getting rid of tiers is awesome, been saying it for years. BUT I'd rather not have to train more skills to do what I can do right now. Been plenty of that all ready. Keep that in mind when you go about adding, splitting, and refunding skills and skill points.



COME ON PEOPLE! READ THE POSTS!

CCP Guard wrote:
Re-balancing is on our minds as many of you know and CCP Ytterbium is here to tell you all about some major changes we'll be seeing the start of soon.

Please go here to read the blog and as always, we're eager to hear your feedback.

Edit:
Notice also CCP Soundwave's remark about skill reimbursement,
CCP Soundwave's statement that "if you could fly it yesterday, you will be able to fly it tomorrow" and
CCP Ytterbium's confirmation about racial skill preservation.
CCP Ytterbium provides a bunch of answers to common questions and concerns in the thread (March 8th 12:06 EVE time)



If you can actually read and comprehend what you read, these already say (and have been restated several times) "What you can fly today, you will be able to fly tomorrow." And for the love of all that is good and holy, this was the FIRST POST.

Fly Safe!
Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams
#1706 - 2012-03-10 04:05:16 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Isn't it our job to define roles for particular ships, not yours?


true, but teircide will help that. A ship with a bonus can be used in all sorts of ways depending on fiting (tank, gank, tackle, speed), useful bonuses on all ships and decent baseslots for its class help.

currently its top tier or bust. If you touch a ferox instead of a drake people laugh at you.
Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams
#1707 - 2012-03-10 04:19:59 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


Actually Minmatar would indeed be the race you would recommend to a character wanting to specialize in PVP. They have the best ships for PVP at almost every level and fitting the largest variety of different types of PVP a character might want to get into.

Now if they said "Well first I want to be financially secure, so I'd like to be really good at missions... but would still like to participate in large scale PVP to support my corp". then you would suggest perhaps Caldari with an eye towards the Drake or Tengu.

Other races have their niche's where they shine as well, but overall most PVP pilots are Minmatar (or heavily cross trained in Minmatar) for a reason.


If this is the case would you please tell me why more caldari ships are flown in the Alliance tournament than any other race? This is the tournament with the wealthiest most skilled pilots in the game so race and isk are not issues. If you can only fly Minmatar ships in PvP then explain the ATs. If you want a brawl then yes minmatar ships are the ships to fly. But that's not the only way to PvP. Minmatar ship put delivering damage to the target above all else. It's flat out stated in the ship descriptions, but they most certainly are not the only race capable of PvPing. People need to stop implying that when it has proven to not be the case.


tournaments are not the same as small scale pvp, which is not the same as massive fleet battles.

Matar are good because in massive battles, speed is important, to GTFO and catch targets, if your a massive fleet outnumbering a foe your biggest issue is catching things. Better active tanking for 1/1 will be worthless with a alpha fleet. and arts got alpha.

Align time, catching, and escaping are things you never use in a tournament, nor are having so many ships fit for alpha that you can primary a target in one volley.

drake is also a winship, it helps to have the two most perfect bonuses and being able to fit as many large sheild extenders as possiable to give it a tank of a bs, try fitting a armor BC with all 1600 plates. Gallente have BC failships because of a active repair bonus that is useless as... something very useless. And ammar, if they traded the bonuses of the propocy and harbringer bonueses you would have a ammar drake equivalent.
Nigel Steele
Eveville Empire
#1708 - 2012-03-10 05:12:17 UTC
Sweet... I already have BC and Destroyers 5, so I just need to know how soon this is planned to take place? I have 62 days remaining on int / mem but am willing to train all the racial cruisers to 3 at less than peak rate if it means free skillz!
Ariak Rykard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1709 - 2012-03-10 07:13:34 UTC
While you guys are addressing this issue, i'd also like to highlight one particular category of pirate faction ships that's noteably missing from current availability: Caldari/Minmatar.

I find it insulting that there are two pirate faction available for Gallente/Minmater, for every ship class category:
Frigates: Daredevil, Dramiel
Cruisers: Cynabal, Vigilant
Battleships: Machariel, Vindicator

.....but none for the Caldari/Minmatar version?
Don't pilots also deserve the ability to harness skills acquired from both these racials and be able to fly ship/s that reflect this calling?
Mayhap, it's got something to do with Eve-fiction? Can't you introduce a new pirate faction that provides this service?

While we're on the same line of thought, and in par with your new ship-skill restructuring....how about introducing MOAR pirate ships, namely, destroyer and battlecruiser class versions?

But wait, there's more!
Following -that- line of thought......
PIRATE FACTION CAP SHIPS! wru?

Hate me all you want, if there's one cross-training that's too over powered in this game, it's Gallente/Minmatar.
FIX THIS PLEASE.

Thank you.

    ̿ ̿̿̿̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\==((•̪●))==/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ ̿ b(",b) ob(-.0)do (d.")d

SB Rico
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1710 - 2012-03-10 07:20:37 UTC
So being as I fly all 4 races BC and Command Ship (max skills) I have a significant amount of leadership SP and tend to use specifc CS for specific mods (I am aware a t3 could do this better with warefare links but I gimp the fit to do it and can't be on the field) this means that to keep me where I am I would need my BC skill refunded at 4 times the amount of SP. Do this and ofc I am happy, nothing has changed.

On the other hand some dudes would be rightly annoyed that I got a 3mil SP bonus from CCP

BC at this time are basically the most used ship type in PVP and not exactly unused in PVE, messing with them is going to annoy a lot of people regardless of how you do it.

In summary, potentially I get put back 9 weeks of training or I get an advantage over other people, neither of these options is exactly fair...

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.

Col Crunch
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#1711 - 2012-03-10 08:16:23 UTC
Szilardis wrote:
Grideris wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.



Is it possible to instead of refunding the SP, just give the skills instead? Because if you can do so, here is what I would do:


  • If a player has Racial Frigate III and Destroyers X - give player Recial Destroyer X for every race they have Racial Frigate III in
  • Ditto for Battlecruisers


I could support this.

I think this makes perfect sense, and is most likely the best solution.

Also: The Rokh is not the teir 3 BC... I find it funny that CCP of all people made that mistake Lol
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
#1712 - 2012-03-10 10:14:00 UTC
I have wanted an existing-ship overhaul for years, with every ship having a viable role to play, so I fully support this. If it means many of us will have to train up a few racial BC skills then it will be worth the benefit these changes will bring to the game world. HTFU you whiney whinging self-centered wimps ;P
DelBoy Trades
Trotter Independent Traders.
#1713 - 2012-03-10 12:00:21 UTC
Ariak Rykard wrote:
While you guys are addressing this issue, i'd also like to highlight one particular category of pirate faction ships that's noteably missing from current availability: Caldari/Minmatar.

I find it insulting that there are two pirate faction available for Gallente/Minmater, for every ship class category:
Frigates: Daredevil, Dramiel
Cruisers: Cynabal, Vigilant
Battleships: Machariel, Vindicator

.....but none for the Caldari/Minmatar version?
Don't pilots also deserve the ability to harness skills acquired from both these racials and be able to fly ship/s that reflect this calling?
Mayhap, it's got something to do with Eve-fiction? Can't you introduce a new pirate faction that provides this service?

While we're on the same line of thought, and in par with your new ship-skill restructuring....how about introducing MOAR pirate ships, namely, destroyer and battlecruiser class versions?

But wait, there's more!
Following -that- line of thought......
PIRATE FACTION CAP SHIPS! wru?

Hate me all you want, if there's one cross-training that's too over powered in this game, it's Gallente/Minmatar.
FIX THIS PLEASE.

Thank you.

Incorrect.

Damn nature, you scary!

Ariak Rykard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1714 - 2012-03-10 12:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ariak Rykard
DelBoy Trades wrote:

Incorrect.


So's your right eye. Ugh

    ̿ ̿̿̿̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\==((•̪●))==/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ ̿ b(",b) ob(-.0)do (d.")d

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1715 - 2012-03-10 13:11:58 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


Actually Minmatar would indeed be the race you would recommend to a character wanting to specialize in PVP. They have the best ships for PVP at almost every level and fitting the largest variety of different types of PVP a character might want to get into.

Now if they said "Well first I want to be financially secure, so I'd like to be really good at missions... but would still like to participate in large scale PVP to support my corp". then you would suggest perhaps Caldari with an eye towards the Drake or Tengu.

Other races have their niche's where they shine as well, but overall most PVP pilots are Minmatar (or heavily cross trained in Minmatar) for a reason.


If this is the case would you please tell me why more caldari ships are flown in the Alliance tournament than any other race? This is the tournament with the wealthiest most skilled pilots in the game so race and isk are not issues. If you can only fly Minmatar ships in PvP then explain the ATs. If you want a brawl then yes minmatar ships are the ships to fly. But that's not the only way to PvP. Minmatar ship put delivering damage to the target above all else. It's flat out stated in the ship descriptions, but they most certainly are not the only race capable of PvPing. People need to stop implying that when it has proven to not be the case.


Because all PvP in EVE goes by AT rules, right?

A good AT team composition is just that, an AT composition. Such a gang would get absolutely destroyed in any other TQ PvP situation. Stick to missions, thanks!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1716 - 2012-03-10 16:56:40 UTC
so here's an idea for SP reimbursement. It seems obvious if difficult to implement:
"IF [Race[ FRIGATE LVL = >3 THEN [Race] DESTROYER LVL = Curren DESTROYER LVL"
"IF [Race] FRIGATE LVL = <4 THEN [Race] DESTROYER LVL = 0"

IE if you have Caldari frig 4, Minmatar frig 3, Amarr Frig 5, no Gallente frig skill and Destroyers 3 you would get Caldari and Amarr Destroyers 3 but not Minmatar or gallente Destroyers at all.

Just a thought.
Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#1717 - 2012-03-10 17:04:49 UTC
The change to skills is poorly thought out. If it ends up as a giveaway to vets, I disapprove. If it ends up as a pointless new timesink, I disapprove. If it does neither of these things, then it isn't really much of a change and you shouldn't bother with it. It's particularly unfair to those who aren't on their per/wil remap because they've trained all the pertinent skills (at least for the stuff they fly) to V and now you're introducing new essential per/wil skills.

For the rest, it's nice to see you focusing on existing ships and not introducing new ones.
Khun Suway
Doomheim
#1718 - 2012-03-10 17:06:58 UTC
Finally - some sanity to the ship and race chaos !!

After all - this is a ROLE playing game - anything to make both ships and races ROLE SPECIFIC, instead everyone can fly everything, is a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

But go the rest of the way and make training a specific skill of a different race more difficult than training the skills of your race - in addition to a racial bonus for the skills of your race - - caldari trains caldari BC in normal time and gets a % bonus for missiles, but if they train minmatar BC it takes longer to train and bonus does not apply - - projectile arty on an amarr ship so you can divert the power/cap to your tank? What kind of nonsense is that!

Sure it 'reduces' the 'diversity/unpredictability' - so what! back to the original point - this is a ROLE playing game.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#1719 - 2012-03-10 19:15:41 UTC
Khun Suway wrote:
Finally - some sanity to the ship and race chaos !!

After all - this is a ROLE playing game - anything to make both ships and races ROLE SPECIFIC, instead everyone can fly everything, is a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

But go the rest of the way and make training a specific skill of a different race more difficult than training the skills of your race - in addition to a racial bonus for the skills of your race - - caldari trains caldari BC in normal time and gets a % bonus for missiles, but if they train minmatar BC it takes longer to train and bonus does not apply - - projectile arty on an amarr ship so you can divert the power/cap to your tank? What kind of nonsense is that!

Sure it 'reduces' the 'diversity/unpredictability' - so what! back to the original point - this is a ROLE playing game.

Pretty sure that's not the kind of "role" the term is referring to, bro.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#1720 - 2012-03-10 20:42:20 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Re-balancing is on our minds as many of you know and CCP Ytterbium is here to tell you all about some major changes we'll be seeing the start of soon.

Please go here to read the blog and as always, we're eager to hear your feedback.


I would like to know if CCP is going to expand the ORE Tree. It seems that the ORE tree could use: Destroyers, Covert Ops, Transports, Black Ops.