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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1661 - 2012-03-09 18:01:30 UTC
Mirei Jun wrote:
Ship updates are great -its been needed for a long time.

One minor concern is cross training for new players. It appears training into different battle cruisers is going to take significantly longer under this system. This is perhaps an acceptable side affect, but will hinder a new player's ability to participate in fleets. Other then that I have no complaints.

As a player of the current game, being forced to train more skills on characters (even if its just new characters) is nothing but an annoyance. However if additional ships and roles are added to Eve the long term benefit is worth it.


About 6-12 days (bc 3 or bc 4) per race.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1662 - 2012-03-09 18:05:19 UTC
Mirei Jun wrote:
Ship updates are great -its been needed for a long time.

One minor concern is cross training for new players. It appears training into different battle cruisers is going to take significantly longer under this system. This is perhaps an acceptable side affect, but will hinder a new player's ability to participate in fleets. Other then that I have no complaints.

As a player of the current game, being forced to train more skills on characters (even if its just new characters) is nothing but an annoyance. However if additional ships and roles are added to Eve the long term benefit is worth it.


It won't hinder new players participating in fleets, as getting into the first BC still takes roughly the same time (+1 days or so for added destroyer 4, which obviously can be skipped at the moment). It will however hinder them in being able to quickly fly BCs from different races. That does take a few days extra (dessie + bc skill of the new race are both needed). But even that is negligible considering that they generally need a new weapon system for that race as well (and potentially a new tank, depending on the the races obviously).
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1663 - 2012-03-09 18:12:33 UTC
Mirei Jun wrote:
This is perhaps an acceptable side affect, but will hinder a new player's ability to participate in fleets. Other then that I have no complaints.


The hope is that after ship rebalancing, people won't have to cross-train any more. That is, every race will have a perfectly viable ship for any role in the game. Which should include solo, gang, fleet, blob, etc.

At least that's what I'm hoping for. I always found it a little bit silly how almost everyone is forced to learn to fly almost everything (within reason), simply because some race's ships vastly outperform other races' ships for a specific task. After the ship rebalance, if it is done well, there should no longer be a need for it. A true min/maxer will still do it, but for majority of players one race's lineup should be sufficient. Though, again, that's just what I'm hoping will happen. For me personally it's somewhat immersion-breaking to see faction militia members flying enemy ships.
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#1664 - 2012-03-09 18:27:02 UTC
Got one question... when Is this change likely to happen?

Training for BC V and the racial cruiser skills III takes some time. As I am currently Int/Mem I'd probably wait for my yearly remap at the end of may to start the train. But would that be in time?

When is Inferno supposed to come out and is this happening in Inferno 1.0?
Exitar Stormscion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1665 - 2012-03-09 18:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Exitar Stormscion
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Full support to your ideas here and for what you are trying to do and i hope you implement them fast and well.

Also make UI / ART department add those tech tress in game please visual representation in game ftw !
Callic Veratar
#1666 - 2012-03-09 18:35:46 UTC
One thing to consider for Command Ships is that in the past you needed any one Racial Frigate V (for Assault Ships), Racial Cruiser V, and Battlecruiser V.

To fly all of the Field CSs, you would need 1 Frigate V (2x), 4 Cruiser V (5x) and 1 Battlecruiser V (6x) which is 28x. In the new system, you only need the 4 Racial Battlecruiser V (6x) skills which is 24x. The four Racial Destroyer IV (2x) skills will take less time than Assault Ship IV (4x) and Heavy Assault Ship IV (6x).

Yes, if you want to fly ALL ships, it will take you longer, however if you just want to specialize in one tier, you will be able to get there faster. Besides, most people commenting on this thread already have most of these skills.


There is no need to argue about the new players either (as opposed to alts). Yes, they can theoretically get into a Command Ship or a Carrier earlier, however, new players are heavily gated on ISK. They don't have 20M laying around to drop on a T1 Battlecruiser, let alone 1B for a Capital.
Galen Gallente
The Oasis Group
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#1667 - 2012-03-09 18:37:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Andski wrote:
May I propose a new line of skills

Racial Gunner
Racial Sharpshoote
Racial Advanced Weapon Upgrade
Racial Surgical Strik
Racial Mechanic
Racial Shield Managemen
Racial Hull Upgrades

:Start obvious troll counter proposal:
No, lets leave the as is, but make super carriers and titans just use one general skill across all races to be consistent. They're kinda like dreads and carriers just abit bigger and obviously don't deserve their own racial skills
:End obvious troll counter proposal:

Edit: But in all seriousness, is making those 2 classes function like all the others that big an issue to you?


Yes, it is when the core system is of a poor design.

The design for Destroyers and BCs is better than the core system and the core system should become more like them.
SwindonBadger
0utbreak
#1668 - 2012-03-09 18:46:36 UTC
Id just be aware of two things,

I understand you will do your best to give back the same ships skills., I hope you also take into account that if we loose the ability to fly all destroyers / BC ect then we would have not trained other things until this was done for all races ( some of us) so Id happily triad X amount of skills I trained after for all races again....

Secondly try to remember that if the new ship classes are too generic you will loose something special in this game, by this I mean if the ship role is defined so easily and there is no effective way to set it up differently the element of surprise will be hugely reduced., and there for :

If its too easy to see a ship type and know that's its 90 percent setup in one way this game will get very dull and bland much faster after the initial rush of finding out the one and only max fitting/role.

Good Luck, bag of popcorpse waiting, ( any sign of a digested Nova mouse matt)?



Korbin Dallaz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1669 - 2012-03-09 18:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Korbin Dallaz
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


all 4 races should not be the same. that you got right. but every race should offer good possibilities for pve, pvp, ...
other wise 0.0 and low would be populated by minmatar pilots only, because there is a lot of pvp going around in that areas
having only one race for one aspect of the game is dumbing the game down. giving alternatives creates different ways to achive the same goal -> diversity => complexit
i can understand your anxiety for 4 races which are exactly the same. but that is not going to happen. balancing does not equal homogenisation. in fact, thats what makes proper balancing such a pain in the a....


That is a gross over simplification and I realize that I did the same but I intend to clarify. I am speaking strictly of T1 ships as it has been stated else where that T2 and T3 are totally different classifications and different situations

So minmatar have speed over the other races and do damage into huge falloff's. So in a one on one brute force battle the minmatar ships can typically choose engagement distance and eat up their competition. But minmatar ships also typically have the absolute worst tank to even things out.

Caldari have ECM and awesome tanks and are very useful in PvP as is shown by their dominance in the Alliance tournaments in recent years. I'm not saying that Minmatar should be the only race that can PvP. I'm saying that it is well known that if you want to learn to PvP you go out and get a bunch of rifters and look for 1 v 1's

On a similar note, Again T1 ships only, Caldari have the drake and Raven which are both excellent mission boats especially for new players that have not learned about transversal velocity. Good tank decent damage no need to worry about distance things like that. Minmatar though you either fly a typhoon where your damage mods only affect half your highslots or you fly a Tempest or Maelstrom and are stuck choosing between Artillery which can hit nothing either close or small or autocannons which can't hit most of the mission BSs that orbit at 35 km or more. The apoc with it's optimal bonuse and scortch do not have that issue. Galenete have drones. So yes Minmatar damage wise are idealized for PvP and penalized for PvE. I'm not saying you can't mission as a Minmatar pilot and I'm not saying you can't PvP as any of the other races. I'm just saying the the Minmatar weapon system is idealized for PvP and the worst choice for PvE.

The versatility of the Galenete ships make them wonderful choices see the neut domi for examples of this. Amarr ships as well have their place in PvP. As things are now you can do all things with every race it's just that some races do specific things better than other races. That is difference and that is flavor. I'm saying we should keep that.

What I've seen recently is changes to hybrids to make them faster thereby removing the speed benefit of Minmatar ships in PvP . Well speed is all the minmatar ships had. They had the worst tanks and did the worst damage already the falloff and ability to keep people in their falloff was the only benefit they had. Now you will see they have to do something to compensate for their compensation. This will be a perpetual nerfy/buff cycle like you see in WoW in an attempt to make things " equal and balanced"
Wolf TheFallen
The Fallening Deafening Silence Syndicate
#1670 - 2012-03-09 18:53:03 UTC
Ship re balancing is a something that needs to be addressed in this game. There are a lot of ships out there that are just completely and utterly worthless.

Yes by addressing these issues, Skill points and time it takes to train up for a ship comes part of the play.
All we ask is don't take away more game time we have already spent training up to do something, just to take it away.

So if we have BC skill already and the racial skill for a Courser haul at 4. THEN MAKE SURE WE CAN FLY THAT DAMN BC for that race when you do this change.

Or what ever you do it better be equivalent exchange or You will had an Angry Community all Trying to all Jump into JITA again too shoot your stuff, and stressing a server to death again.


Just saying..............
Escape513
Perma Camp Inc
#1671 - 2012-03-09 19:04:20 UTC
the only thing why u guys are "balancing" the skills to get a ship is becose u want more ******* noobs who play this game whitout getting frustrated......
Electra Gaterau
Thunderwaffles
Goonswarm Federation
#1672 - 2012-03-09 19:20:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
CCP Ytterbium? I don't suppose I could get you to say that it won't be an SP reimbursement, but instead just sticking the new skills onto people, at the appropriate level? I'm pretty sure that's what you've been meaning, but it's also obvious some people are thinking they'll get the chance to respend the points at will.


As for Destroyers:

Typically, a destroyer is a fleet defense boat. It already handles the anti-frigate line ok, so how about something for handling fleet missile defense? Or maybe an E-Warfare role.
Maybe something cloaky or Bomb defense related?



Well reimbursement is tricky, can't say about details yet, because we still need to think about them. Whatever this is going to be SP reimbursement or just sticking new skills, or whatever options in the middle still need to be considered.

Funny, I got somebody suggesting the very same idea regarding destroyers having a fleet defense role to me during lunch P*insert tinfoil hat theory here*


I wouldn't mind seeing a dedicated exploration destroyer with some combat capability like a drone boat!
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#1673 - 2012-03-09 19:22:39 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Mirei Jun wrote:
This is perhaps an acceptable side affect, but will hinder a new player's ability to participate in fleets. Other then that I have no complaints.


The hope is that after ship rebalancing, people won't have to cross-train any more. That is, every race will have a perfectly viable ship for any role in the game. Which should include solo, gang, fleet, blob, etc.

At least that's what I'm hoping for. I always found it a little bit silly how almost everyone is forced to learn to fly almost everything (within reason), simply because some race's ships vastly outperform other races' ships for a specific task. After the ship rebalance, if it is done well, there should no longer be a need for it. A true min/maxer will still do it, but for majority of players one race's lineup should be sufficient. Though, again, that's just what I'm hoping will happen. For me personally it's somewhat immersion-breaking to see faction militia members flying enemy ships.


This is the kind of thing that wow did when they gave paladins to the horde and shammans to the alliance. It make the game boring as hell. If this is implemented, it will remove yet another thing special about Eve. I can understand wanting more subscribers, but this will only pull in those people who just left a game looking for something different. In trying to pull in those transient gamers, we should remember that Eve stands apart for a reason. Keeping people playing is not about doing what the other games are doing. Other games are losing people specifically because of changes like what you are suggesting.

That being said, there are ships that don't get to see as much use as others. Changes should not be made for the sake of change, but for an improvement (or extension) of what has made Eve so wildly successful. The last thing I want to see is a dumb down of game mechanics to appease a crowd of people that never had the intention of staying for the long haul anyway.
Danny Husk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1674 - 2012-03-09 19:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Husk
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
The hope is that after ship rebalancing, people won't have to cross-train any more. That is, every race will have a perfectly viable ship for any role in the game. Which should include solo, gang, fleet, blob, etc. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

What you're hoping for is a boring game that sucks. If you want Red v. Blue classes and RP-PvP, then there are games that do those things. EVE survives, at least in part, because it does not do them.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1675 - 2012-03-09 19:48:10 UTC
Danny Husk wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
The hope is that after ship rebalancing, people won't have to cross-train any more. That is, every race will have a perfectly viable ship for any role in the game. Which should include solo, gang, fleet, blob, etc. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

What you're hoping for is a boring game that sucks. If you want Red v. Blue classes, go play SWTOR.


Look at the following scenario. Person 1 is an EVE vet, person 2 is considering starting EVE.

1: So what do you want to do in EVE?
2: I mainly want to PvP.
1: Ok, thats cool, PvP is really fun. You have to train Minmatar then.
2: But I think Gallente looks awesome.
1: Well, Minmatar is superior in most aspects of PvP, so that is what you want to train.
2: But...
1: No. Minmatar. Now.

So here we are, a game that has one option if you want to do one thing, and CCP wants to give us the same possibilities with all the races. How the hell is that a boring, dumbed down, WoW, SWToR game?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1676 - 2012-03-09 19:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Danny Husk wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
The hope is that after ship rebalancing, people won't have to cross-train any more. That is, every race will have a perfectly viable ship for any role in the game. Which should include solo, gang, fleet, blob, etc. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

What you're hoping for is a boring game that sucks. If you want Red v. Blue classes and RP-PvP, then there are games that do those things. EVE survives, at least in part, because it does not do them.



So you /have/ to cross train. You /have/ to spend some time on skills, just so you can try out a role that your chosen race doesn't have a ship for.

Personally, I find that more boring.

On top of the other skills I need for the role, I /have/ to train up that ship as well. Fun fun fun. Honest.


edit:

Hi! We're the Amarr. We can't make a Battlecruiser that's as likeable as the Drake, for, umm, religious reasons. Yes. That'll work.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Danny Husk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1677 - 2012-03-09 19:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Husk
Hannott Thanos wrote:
1: Ok, thats cool, PvP is really fun. You have to train Minmatar then.

Yeah, you're right. Now that I think about it, I know a TON of Drake and Tengu pilots who could have used this advice like a year ago. And all those idiots flying around in Abaddons who definitely did not get the memo. And all those Guardian and Basilisk pilots . . . and who the hell keeps bringing these Blasterthrons to small gang fights? Those guys just don't get it. And those Nyx pilots . . . man, don't even get me started on the Nyx pilots.

And don't you even THINK about training a Taranis. If I EVER see you flying a Taranis, I will pod you myself.

You should maybe write a blog or something though, cause people need your help.
Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1678 - 2012-03-09 20:03:18 UTC
One thought on what to do with the issue of WTF do we need destroyers 4 for since there is only one hull: (IE hull ideas)

The obvious one is to do a variant of the new BCs. The current hulls are frigate hunters make a cruiser hunter glass cannon hull that can fit either medium guns or has a significant damage bonus without the tracking bonus.

desties have the potential to be a good entry level exploration ship for solo exploration where you want lots of high and mid slots for your probe launcher, salvager, analyzer and hacker. there's four slots gone if you do solo exploration. Frigates have issues losing that many slots and current destroyer hulls suffer more due to the lack of mids and lows. The othre thing you want for exploration is a good solid survivability. Desties are tougher with higher DPS than frigates which, face it, get blasted in combat plexes an have issues with all but the easiest anomalies.

Why not bring the current hulls in line with a ship role appropriate to it's race (IE the thrasher becomes an attack ship, the cormorant a bombardment platform) then start adding hulls to fit the other roles that are missed.

The fact is we have a whole pile of frigates and cruisers, three kinds of BS, three BCs an only one Destroyer hull (by race). Until crucible the primary reason to buy a desty hulls was for lvl1 missions and before that, salvaging. If we're going to make it mandatory to study Destroyers to fly cruisers then lets have a reason to fly the creatures or at least have some choice in what to fly. Four skills to fly four T1 ships, not really a lot of fun.
Skex Relbore
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1679 - 2012-03-09 20:14:16 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
What I see here isn't really proposing one frustrating thing, it's proposing one thing that makes the ugly ducklings find their lost swan siblings and another thing that is kind of infuriating because it doesn't really seem to make any sense

Ship roles balance on a triangle of defense, offense and mobility to help "lesser" T1s pull their weight in the valuable minerals that have otherwise been wasted on them is a wonderful idea. I'd love to see the Bantams and the Scythes matter for once

That digs deeply here is the arguable necessity in restructuring the way we train (as in, wait) to use non tech-1 ships. If we're going for homogeneity, it would be practical to the players to eliminate racial training entirely. What isn't practical is dictating a place for things the players have already long decided

However, if we're going to go with racial specialization, please at least make Racial Destroyer a 1x skill and Racial Battlecruiser a 2x or 3x skill. These ships really are just frigate +1 or cruiser +1, they still rely on small and medium sized rigs and modules (with the exception of BC3s) and their prices scale up fairly well with their fittings.



^^^this^^

My primary problem with the proposed changes have to do with the additional SP requirements that will be placed on characters after the change as opposed to before.

One can argue as Tippia has tried that 6mil sp is relatively trivial when it comes to the difference between a fully cross trained and a specialized character when it comes to BC's because of weapon and other support skills but this ignores that what we're actually talking about is an additional 20+ days added to the process of adding a different races BC at the level it takes today

Consider today you fly exclusively Gallente (hypothetical) up to BC and because you are a BC specialist you have BC trained to 5 . you have T2 hybrids, good armor and Drone skills, Now you decide that you want to fly a Drake

Under the current system you have to train Caldari Frig to 4 and Caldari Cruiser to 3 at which point you can actually "fly" a Drake with max bonuses, to properly use it you then have to train missile, and shield skills.

Under the proposed system you'd have to train everything above plus Caldari Destroyer and Caldari Cruiser to 4, and then be facing a Rank6 train to level 5 to achieve the exact same results.

So no matter how you try to twist it or spin it this means that players who don't meet what ever qualifications are set to get handed all 8 racial skills at 5 on patch day will be facing somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 additional months of training compared to those who did meet said qualifications.

To me that's a permanent 3 month advantage being granted to players who qualify. and you know what this character qualifies no matter what criteria they set up since I already have all 4 racial cruisers to 5 as well as BC and Dessy to 5

Oh and screw the argument about easing access to command ships. Most people don't train BC5 in order to get access to command ships they train BC5 to maximize the performance of their T1 Battle Cruisers

The only way I can see splitting those two skills into 4 racial specific skills and while not screwing over new players would be to lower their rank to the point where training all 4 would add up to roughly the same amount of skill time as under the current system as Aphoxema G suggests above. This would be fair, no one would "lose" and it would give the developers the ability to split the skills as they desire.

Another thing that needs to be considered in this proposed change, what do you do about people who fly BS and above but haven't trained Destroyers or Battle-cruisers to 4? The character I'm training to be my main capital pilot is currently training BS5 but since I never really used him in smaller hulls (he started as a miner then I moved him to a Domi and now he's going capital) I only trained Dessies on hi to 1 and BC to 2. Now I'm not too worried about him losing access BC's since he's pretty much going to live in a Capital or a BLOPS but this means he technically wouldn't be qualified to fly the ships I'm training him specifically for. Does he suddenly get Gal Dessy and Gal BS to 4

Oh and all the people crying about the BS5 requirement being removed from CAPs being the end of the world, obviously haven't actually trained a capital pilot. Believe me that 26 days is pretty trivial in the larger scheme of stuff you have to train to use a Cap ship properly. For a proper Carrier for instance you need Jump drive operation to 5 so you can train jump drive calibration so you can actually jump a decent range. Drone interfacing to 5 for fighters Logistics to 5 to use a triage module. Then there are all the engineering and tanking skills plus level 5 in all the repping/transfer prereqs. No the biggest affect of lowering the BS req on Cap ships will shortening the cross train to another races capitals by that ~26 days. Of course I won't care that much s

TL:DR if you are going to insist on splitting the Dessy and BC skills into racial types then the only fair way to do it would be to lower their ranks to the point where training all 4 to a given level would take approximately the same amount of time that training the unified skill does under the current system
Aineko Macx
#1680 - 2012-03-09 20:16:58 UTC
Compared to the abolishment of the tier system the changes of the skill tree is insignificant. I welcome the initiative. Now lets hope CCP actually manages to pull it off correctly...