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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1221 - 2012-03-07 15:44:18 UTC
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600
No, only 1,552k — BC V and Dessy III. The rest are not being being split up. Some of the T2 role skills will have their prereqs reduced so as to not require lower-tier skills (HACs no longer requires AFs; CSes no longer require HACs and Logis; Recons no longer require CovOps), but that's all.


Hrm....

Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill.




Actually if Dessies and BC's become racial then you'll have to train a ton crap more skills than you'll recuperate.
I've got 3 races using Dessie and BC's so this means that whatever SP I get reimbursed, accordingly to your calculations, this means that I'll have to completely train from the scratch 2 dessie/BC races?

I don't think CCP didn't figured this out on the contrary, I'm very sure that once again and for the greater good of this game this will be implemented and once again Malcanis law will be applied, this means you'll get more sp to cover the whole races ships you could already fly before.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1222 - 2012-03-07 15:46:55 UTC
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively (a 'locked down' increase of 4,656,000 SP to my character) as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill.
Well, the BC V across the board has already been promised, so that just leaves the question of what will happen with your Dessi skill since that part hasn't been completely clarified. However, since the principle is “if you have it, you keep it”, it would only make sense if you're given all Dessies at III as well.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1223 - 2012-03-07 15:47:10 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600
No, only 1,552k — BC V and Dessy III. The rest are not being being split up. Some of the T2 role skills will have their prereqs reduced so as to not require lower-tier skills (HACs no longer requires AFs; CSes no longer require HACs and Logis; Recons no longer require CovOps), but that's all.


Hrm....

Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill.




Actually if Dessies and BC's become racial then you'll have to train a ton crap more skills than you'll recuperate.
I've got 3 races using Dessie and BC's so this means that whatever SP I get reimbursed, accordingly to your calculations, this means that I'll have to completely train from the scratch 2 dessie/BC races?

I don't think CCP didn't figured this out on the contrary, I'm very sure that once again and for the greater good of this game this will be implemented and once again Malcanis law will be applied, this means you'll get more sp to cover the whole races ships you could already fly before.


Go read the details on the third link of the first post.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Alabugin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1224 - 2012-03-07 15:48:25 UTC
"but also reducing Battleship requirement from 5 to 4 for capitals."



*SPRAYS DRINK OUT OF MOUTH ALL OVER SCREEN*

WHAAAAAAAAT???
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1225 - 2012-03-07 15:50:56 UTC
Alabugin wrote:
"but also reducing Battleship requirement from 5 to 4 for capitals."



*SPRAYS DRINK OUT OF MOUTH ALL OVER SCREEN*

WHAAAAAAAAT???
…effectively reducing a year-long (at the very least) skill plan by 20 days. The difference is negligible once you include all the stuff required to actually make the capships do anything other than sit very still in space.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#1226 - 2012-03-07 15:56:52 UTC
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
And as for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers, the ABSOLUTE WORST thing CCP could do would be to reimburse skill points in this situation. It makes the most sense to have the skills remapped based on the combination of Destroyer/Battlecruiser and the Frigate/Cruiser levels.

So if you have Destroyers V and Gallente Frigate V, Amarr Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate 4 and Caldari Frigate 3, you get
Gallente Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers 4 and Caldari Destroyers 3.

This might make some players lose T2 access to a couple variations of Interdictors or Command Ships, but if publicized now, the skills can be trained up to actually give you more ship options come Inferno than less.


Why is it the worst? Your plan doesn't allow people to keep flying the ships they currently can, so it will cause riots and rightly so, while CCP's plan doesn't cause such issues. The only ones who really suffer from it are future new players and they're going to get shafted in all cases just the same. Any current player who wants to gain the benefits from this reinbursement can train the skills before the changes and enjoy the same benefits with the rest of us.
Malakai Draevyn
Internet SpaceShips Is Serious Business
#1227 - 2012-03-07 15:57:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Well, the BC V across the board has already been promised, so that just leaves the question of what will happen with your Dessi skill since that part hasn't been completely clarified. However, since the principle is “if you have it, you keep it”, it would only make sense if you're given all Dessies at III as well.


That would seem to make sense.... either which way, it's still a 4.5m boost to the level of SP that I currently have on this character... Quite honestly, I think I'd prefer the reimbursement of the 6m SP as I dont tend to use Dessy / BC hulls much these days. Then again, beggars can't be choosers.
Ardent Rage
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1228 - 2012-03-07 15:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ardent Rage
Racial Frig ---> Racial Destroyer ----> Racial Cruiser ----> Racial Battlecruiser ----> Racial Battleship


Easiest way to implement this change
1. Reimburse the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skillpoints + a fixed amount of 6 144 000 skillpoints for everyone.
2. Hand out the new racial Destroyer and Battlecruiser skillbooks for free
You'd then have the option to inject and train or sell back to Escrow for close to 4mil ISK (according to a quick calculation)

And then bonus remap for us all!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1229 - 2012-03-07 16:06:01 UTC
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
That would seem to make sense.... either which way, it's still a 4.5m boost to the level of SP that I currently have on this character... Quite honestly, I think I'd prefer the reimbursement of the 6m SP as I dont tend to use Dessy / BC hulls much these days. Then again, beggars can't be choosers.

I don't know… I think that a sudden SP increase is a quite suitable punishment for not having to train the skills. P

In fact, come to think of it, I need to find some kind of suitable dummy skill to stick into EFT to check whether the finished Tippia will still fit in the target clone level. It also reminds me of the other interesting change this will bring: we are now given the additional choice of trying to keep our clones lean to keep those costs down — even for older characters, there's a valuable choice to be made that wasn't available before and which brings benefits and drawbacks to each side.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1230 - 2012-03-07 16:09:04 UTC
Still just seeing a big "**** you, new guy, hope you like the race you picked"

Hello, hello again.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1231 - 2012-03-07 16:12:09 UTC
Wow the things people rage about.

Meanwhile, the Federal Reserve is printing more money out of nothing driving up prices as a result of dollar devaluation causing inflation, the USA has SOF in Syria aiding elements of Al Queda while the spokesperson for military intervention was caught cuing fake gunfire in the background during in interview with CNN, the house of representatives is passing laws to limit free speech and already passed the NDAA ensuring you can be detained by the military indefinitely without a trial (no judge no jury) and the G-8 summit was moved off to Camp David indicating that they are planning the next mideast war.

But no, let's all rage about CCP wanting to rebalance ship skills and SP trees.

When I am half starved half worked to death in whatever they call the camp this time around (there will never be concentration camps in the USA, they will simply call them something else and that ploy will actually work), and someone says to me: "Man, CCP messing with those destroyer SPs - really bothers me", I am probably going to rip his face off and stuff it up his ass.


Get a life you morons.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1232 - 2012-03-07 16:13:09 UTC
This is a spaceship vidya game forum.

Hello, hello again.

Swearte Widfarend
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1233 - 2012-03-07 16:30:25 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
And as for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers, the ABSOLUTE WORST thing CCP could do would be to reimburse skill points in this situation. It makes the most sense to have the skills remapped based on the combination of Destroyer/Battlecruiser and the Frigate/Cruiser levels.

So if you have Destroyers V and Gallente Frigate V, Amarr Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate 4 and Caldari Frigate 3, you get
Gallente Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers 4 and Caldari Destroyers 3.

This might make some players lose T2 access to a couple variations of Interdictors or Command Ships, but if publicized now, the skills can be trained up to actually give you more ship options come Inferno than less.


Why is it the worst? Your plan doesn't allow people to keep flying the ships they currently can, so it will cause riots and rightly so, while CCP's plan doesn't cause such issues. The only ones who really suffer from it are future new players and they're going to get shafted in all cases just the same. Any current player who wants to gain the benefits from this reinbursement can train the skills before the changes and enjoy the same benefits with the rest of us.


You are completely wrong. If CCP reimburses skill points for the battlecruiser (and destroyer) skills, you will not have enough SP to continue to fly the ships you need. If they simply convert those skills to the racial equivalent of the prerequisites, you will.

SP reimbursement doesn't account for the SP required for multiple racial ship types. If you get reimbursed BC V you get 1,536,000 SP. If you've trained Command Ships, multiple racial cruises to V and fly more than one variant of a command ship (which is quite common for null sec Command Ship pilots) you need anywhere from 2-4 times that many SP to fly the ships you can fly today. It makes no sense to reimburse BC V skill points and the cost of a skill book when many players won't be "flying the ship they can fly today" under that model. If you have the prerequisites to fly the ship (Racial Cruiser 4 and Battlecruiser X) you should get the equivalent of the prerequisite level so that you can continue to fly the ship. Unlike Learning Skills, this isn't a broad removal of skills that don't have a replacement - this is a direct conversion of (up to) 1,536,000 skill points to 6,144,000 skill points (n the example of Battlecruiser V)

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.

Azmodai Draconis
Mysterious Expeditionary Collective
Elementium Alliance
#1234 - 2012-03-07 16:47:08 UTC
i can see and understand peoples skill point reservations but my concern is will this be used t reduce the high/mid/low slots of certain ships

yes some ships need rebalance ie drake needs to lose kinetice dmg bonus and shield resist for the missle velocety and rate of fire that was proposed however i dont thing ships need to lose fitting slots
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1235 - 2012-03-07 16:48:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Let me ask a specific example.

I have BC trained to V. I fly Hurricane and Drakes perfectly.

Now, here comes the catch:

1) The dev blog has to be fallacious. How is it possible I get free SP reimbursement equivalent to 3 x BC V? I will only believe when I'll see it. If I get 4 x BC V "just because" then it's very discriminating to those who didn't train to BC V by the day the patch goes live.

2) If I don't get the reimbursement but just "the ability to fly" (free skill book + BC trained to 1?), then it's garbage. I fly my BCs perfectly I don't want to waste months just to fly again the same ships I own since years already with the same ability.

Also it clashes with the "you will still fly blah blah".


So, I'd like to know how do they plan to achieve fairness both in case 1 and 2.


They have already specifically stated how this will be handled. Stop the QQ and focus on real issues.

-Liang


They have already specifically lied or created an huge precedent of unfairness. I have BC V, BS V and so on, on multiple alts. I am not affected at all but I find it extremely bad to set back new players by 70 days or whatever just because a skill book name was not consistent.
Doctor Garamond Trebuchet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1236 - 2012-03-07 16:53:12 UTC


While I am gobsmacked that this does not have a GIANT CHECKBOX on the DELIVERABLES spreadsheet on the project plan or whatever you use, to bring ANY GAMECHANGING IDEA/ITEM to them, wtf are we spending so much effort electing them for??????????????

KUDOS for admitting it and maybe now there will be a GIANT CHECKBOX THAT SAYS CSM Y/N COMPLETE on your workflows so this CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN. Evil

Again, thanks for admitting it, owning it and if I was able to travel I would love to buy you a beer and tap the bottom of it while you chugged it :P


CSM NOT INCLUDED?!:


  • I will be honest by saying this is due to my own failure here, please do not blame CCP, or any other employee on that matter. I just plainly and simply forgot to include them in the feedback process; I know that sounds incredibly stupid, unbelievable or even naive, but you have to realize that between various work duties, procedures that have to be followed, internal meetings and reviews, random design emergencies, questions that pop-up from your team, plus being split into different projects that have to be finished in time, you are bound to forget things in the heat of the moment for being tremendously busy.

  • I will not attempt to justify myself however, this was a professional blunder on top of showing a serious lack of courtesy toward them as individuals, but also as elected representatives of the player base.

    Yes, I do fully acknowledge the value they could have brought to this blog before it was released. Trust me, had I remembered about it, this would have been done as it would have saved a lot of confusion here Oops.

    That is why, not only as a CCP employee, but also as an individual, I would sincerely like to apologize to every and each member of the CSM I forgot to include here. CSM, feel free to smack me in the back of my head during Fanfest to remind me that being absent-minded has life threatening, rage inducing consequences that should be avoided at all costs.


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Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1237 - 2012-03-07 16:56:40 UTC
The ship lines idea sounds awesome. Tiers have been obsolete for years now, so I am glad to hear something is being done about. Having more ships that are actually useful is great. In line with that, it seems strange to want to remove the AF -> HAC -> Field command Ship lineup as well as the others, since it is the same sort of progression.

I am neutral on the idea of making destroyers and battlecruiser skills race specific, I'd rather that not happen, but It wouldn't be overly horrible (though, bear in mind it cuts down a bit on the ships you can fly per skill trained). I Do not think the destroyer and battlecruiser skills should be a requirement to train cruiser and battleship, however. Training for destroyer or battlecruiser could be thought of as specializing in a ship size class.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1238 - 2012-03-07 17:03:08 UTC
Since this is just the beginning of a whole streamlining process, I suppose next in line is splitting the capital ships skill into 4 capital ships training. It will be fun training a 14x skill for multiple races! Few quarters and you are done!
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1239 - 2012-03-07 17:03:15 UTC
Thought on the reimbursement solution (at least for BC):

Convert the one BC skill into the four racial BC skills for each character. Then reimburse only those racial BC skills for which the prerequisites are not fulfilled.

IE: if you have Gallente and Minmatar cruiser skills up to 3, but not Caldari or Amarr, and you have BC 4, you get it converted to Gallente BC 4 and Minmatar BC 4, and get reimbursed skill points equivalent to Caldari BC 4 and Amarr BC 4.

In any event, sounds like it's time to train up BC5 so I don't have to train up multiple variations for command ships if/when the split happens.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

GreenSeed
#1240 - 2012-03-07 17:15:59 UTC
getting rid of tiers is great news. now how its done might get a few ppl upset...


to those i say, if you have bc to 5 + all support skills... arent you old enough here to know youre expected to take one for the team once in a while?



all i see is good news, the only thing that has me worried is the new modules, of wich no details were given. we already have a few houndreds and unless new Types of modules are introduced, more variations add nothing but clutter.

for starters, how about kill the defender missiles and add a mid slot antimissile module, AND buff the crap out of misiles at the same time?


how about a new set of anti-missile/anti-artyllery frigs via the usage of active defense systems or some kind of aoe smokescreen?

we been mising "anty-blob Warfare" for years now...

if with this new expansion you want to encourage small to mid fleet warfare you need to give small fleets a chance not to get insta-gibbed by 20+ alpha fleets