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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1201 - 2012-03-07 15:15:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
As long every single player in EVE gets same amount of these NEW skill points, this is not a problem.
It's not even as complicated as that.

As I keep reiterating every time new players come and complain about how they can never “catch up” with old players, SP amounts don't really matter — what matters is ability. SP is a way to unlock those abilities, and as long as the abilities of two people are the same, the amount of SP is irrelevant. Same goes here: it doesn't matter if every EVE character gets the same amount of SP — what matters is that every EVE character gets the same ability

And I disagree with passion as after the abilities have been "unlocked" to match the previous training state, the players who did not have those abilities at level 5 will have to spend 4 times longer training them to get where L5 clients got without any extra cost.

This is not same - this is unfair and really impossible to pull off without pissing every single character who doesn't have these skills at level 5.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S0ns of Anarchy
#1202 - 2012-03-07 15:18:22 UTC
A Lunchbox wrote:
After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion:

I must be the only person in eve to train bs 5 for normal bs

Carry on flameage


Oh no you are not. Maxing up something you actually enjoy flying seems foreign to some people.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1203 - 2012-03-07 15:23:01 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
And I disagree with passion as after the abilities have been "unlocked" to match the previous training state, the players who did not have those abilities at level 5 will have to spend 4 times longer training them to get where L5 clients got without any extra cost.
We'll see. All we know so far is that old BC V → new BC V ×4. We have no idea what old BC IV will yield, or old BC III…

…or, for that matter, old BC V + Only one racial cruiser skill. The reimbursement/translation part is still up in the air and all we've been told is that if we can fly all BCs at lvl V, we will be given all BCs at lvl V. If they are really going with the “if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after” concept, then the unlocked abilities will indeed match completely and nothing is unduly gained. Either way, ability is what matters — SP (and especially total SP) is completely irrelevant, as always.
NextDarkKnight
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
Pandemic Horde
#1204 - 2012-03-07 15:25:03 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.



it not just not appealing its crazy.

pre patch i can fly all cs's and all dic's. post patch im ******. i either pick to fly a claymore or damnation or a vulture (eos is **** anyhow) and then im screwed for the next 80 odd days retraining for ships i could already fly.

you either reduce the ranks of the destroyer and bc skills so reimbursed skill points from the old cover all 4 races, or you just give people all 4 races.




We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy. I'm not terribly fussed about giving away a little extra if it moves we move the ship progression system into a better place.


Agreed.. I trained Destroyer 5 and Battlecruiser 5 just for this purpose. Now I feel it will be wasted skill points, It looks like 4 times as much training for you and 2 times as much training for me.

Why not have Amarr Destroyer Specialization and add some new kick ass destroyers.
VeniVediVici Alto
Doomheim
#1205 - 2012-03-07 15:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: VeniVediVici Alto
I support the revamp. I like the fact that i can get to the industrial ships faster would enjoy carebearing for a while too. :D

But i love my prophecy, drake, ferox, hurricane, myrmidon, tornado, talos, oracle and naga why would you want to take my lovely battlecruisers away from me. You have no ideea what i did with these ships what i've been through with them.

I have Battlecruisers V. If the revamp will be put in place, i expect noting less then All the Racial BattleCRuisers at 5. or else rable rable rable [i suspect the entire community will create posts with rable rable in the future].


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.

EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:

  • New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
  • We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.


MOAR STUFF HERE FOLKS (skills, confusing picture, apology to CSM).


We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy ... everybody can chillax now.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#1206 - 2012-03-07 15:25:47 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
A Lunchbox wrote:
After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion:

I must be the only person in eve to train bs 5 for normal bs

Carry on flameage


Oh no you are not. Maxing up something you actually enjoy flying seems foreign to some people.


Luckily the change does not affect Exhumer, so I'm fine with Exhumer V ...
I'm a lucky CareBear
Seb Seba
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1207 - 2012-03-07 15:25:55 UTC
Xanos Blackpaw wrote:
No! No!

Nonononononononono.


No!

We dont want this! please dont make this change!


**** you yes we do!
We just want it done nicely so it doesn't screw people up.
Malakai Draevyn
Internet SpaceShips Is Serious Business
#1208 - 2012-03-07 15:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Malakai Draevyn
Personally speaking, I can see where CCP are coming from regarding wanting to adjust/tweak/screw-with (delete as appropriate) the skilltraining lines.... but I am, as are the 60+ pages of people above me, uncertain as to the effect this is going to have on my characters....

Let's take a look at my rather extensively crosstrained character.... (Dont laugh at the skills trained - skillplans change over 6 yrs of gaming...

The Baseline
Racial Frigate x4 :
Racial Cruiser x4 :
Racial Battleship x3 : 5 (the fourth is at 4 and a bit

The 'Generic skills' which are in question
Assault Ships 5 : 1024k S
Battlecruisers 5 : 1536k
Command Ships 3 : 64
Covert Ops 5 : 1024
Destroyers 3 : 16
Electronic Attack Ships 2 : 5.6
Heavy Assault Ships 5 : 1536
Interceptors 3 : 32
Jump Freighters 2 : 20k is
Logistics 5 : 1536
Marauders 3 : 80
Recon Ships 5 : 1536
Transport Ships 3 : 48

Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600

Depending on the reimbursement philosophy taken (assuming that all of these generic skills are turned into 4x racial skills) I could be left either :
1. Screwed : If that 8457600 SP is reimbursed as a single lump sum, I lose the ability to fly ships I specifically crosstrained the generic skill to 5, at the ability level of L5. This doesn't read right, so I'll try to explain.

If I get the 8457k reimbursed, to return to being able to fly specific areas of ships, I'd have to specialise into a single racial path. If I was to take the track that I wanted to crosstrain again, that 8.4m sp would have to be split over the racial skills, and thus anything trained to 5 would now be in the region of 2-3..... requiring multiple-months worth of extra training time to return it to L5.

The gulf between flying something, and flying it well, is huge. Fittings change between L4 and L5 'generic' skills...

2. Slightly-Screwed : If the Generics are turned into Racials at their existing level, I gain an additional 25,372,800 SP (8,457,600 x3 for the 3 new races of skills that I 'didnt' train) onto my character, shunting it over 100m SP total. The only reason this would slightly screw me would be to increase the cost of clones in the short term

3. Slightly-Screwed again : If the Generics are turned into Racials at 0, with the 25.3m SP 'reimbursed' to spread as I want them, then stuff that I trained earlier in my eve gaming career probably wouldn't be.... Yes, I'd need to invest more isk in the clones.... but then again, I would have just 'saved' myself approximately 16-18 months worth of training through being given a metric crapton of SP to redistribute

Either which way, whichever way CCP goes on the messing-with-training-lines plan, we, the crosstraining players, are gonna be set back a few million isk (for the new clones) or screwed by not being able to fly everything that we could previously at the same level as we could previously

If it comes to having to shell out for the next grade of clone, so be it. Just don't take away the choice I made to be a generalist in eve

** Yes, I realise that my math is slightly off due to one of the BS-4 skills, but it doesn't affect the end-results much. I was using my character as an example, nothing more, nothing less **

** edit : Yes, I kinda misread something too - Dessy and BC skills are the affected ones - but meh - see my post a few down **
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1209 - 2012-03-07 15:30:36 UTC
The moment I don't have to re train to use my 3 T3 ships I'm ok.
The moment I can use my T2 cruisers I'm ok.

IF I HAVE TO TRAIN 2 weeks to get those again because it's a fair give/take it for everyone including newbs, then I'm also ok.
I can perfectly handle 2 weeks of training and use T2 uber frigates that are really awesome now (thx by the way)

Yeah sucks for cry birds that are always crying after something, I'm already sorting my tears chops at the bar for those...
Swearte Widfarend
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1210 - 2012-03-07 15:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Swearte Widfarend
I wrote a blog post about ships and ship skills. It might not suck. Read it. If it does suck, it will fit right in with the rest of my blog.

Seriously, getting rid of tiers is a good idea, and allows a lot of flexibility in ship introduction and skill development, but the skill tree change might be easier based on the model I am proposing.

As a model to allow role-based ships and skills, using Spaceship Command as the baseline for ship class, and Advanced Spaceship Command as the baseline for Tech 2 ship class simplifies the skill tree without impacting existing users in any significant way (as long as the NPC price of ASC is reduced to a reasonable level).

That way, if CCP wants to introduce a new Tech 2 Battlecruiser, existing Tech 2 Battlecruiser pilots need only train skills for that specific class, and if someone who doesn't even fly a BC wants to fly it, they train Spaceship Command to 5, the basic Racial Battlecruiser skill to the minimum level for the Tech 1 variant of the ship, Advanced Spaceship Command to 4, and the Tech 2 Ship Skill.

It's a clean, practical, understandable process and model that allows easy introduction of new Tech 2 ship classes, and provides openings for CCP to introduce ships in either Tech 1 or Tech 2 variant that have differing skill bonuses and requirements that actually create variety inherently.

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.

Sernum
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1211 - 2012-03-07 15:32:14 UTC
Just to put this in terms CCP will understand. "incarna and nex store was a better idea than this" Hope this helps.
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#1212 - 2012-03-07 15:32:32 UTC
Iteresting...

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Tetsel
House Amamake
#1213 - 2012-03-07 15:32:49 UTC
Does this change mean: No more Drake/Cane blob during 1 week, while people retrain ?
Nice idea ! Hamsters will be happy !

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1214 - 2012-03-07 15:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600
No, only 1,552k — BC V and Dessy III. The rest are not being being split up. Some of the T2 role skills will have their prereqs reduced so as to not require lower-tier skills (HACs no longer requires AFs; CSes no longer require HACs and Logis; Recons no longer require CovOps), but that's all.

Tetsel wrote:
Does this change mean: No more Drake/Cane blob during 1 week, while people retrain ?
Nice idea ! Hamsters will be happy !
Since the core principle is “if you have it, you keep it”, no, since no-one will need to retrain anything.
Malakai Draevyn
Internet SpaceShips Is Serious Business
#1215 - 2012-03-07 15:35:54 UTC
Tetsel wrote:
Does this change mean: No more Drake/Cane blob during 1 week, while people retrain ?
Nice idea ! Hamsters will be happy !


No drake or cane blob for a week or two...
No command ships, recons, logistics, dictors, hictors, ceptors, blah blah blah for that same week or ten..... Oooh, yeah, seeing where this is going yet ? ;)

As I said above, CCP are gonna have to be damn careful how this is applied.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1216 - 2012-03-07 15:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Sernum wrote:
Just to put this in terms CCP will understand. "incarna and nex store was a better idea than this" Hope this helps.



Return to your cave and don't get out unless I call you out !!

NAO !!
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1217 - 2012-03-07 15:39:14 UTC
Another problem now for new pilots is the dearth of choice in the destroyers available, now that pilots willl be required to train them we need to realise that many pilots skip over destroyers completely because they are of little use to them. In particular, most caldari pilots have no interest in railguns, instead they are concentrating on destroyers, now they're going to be forced to spend time training on this gunboat with only one missile slot. Similarly many gallente pilots might want to focus on drones and the Catalyst can only field one.

I would propose adding a second racial destroyer to ameliorate this problem:
Caldari would get a tech 1 missile destroyer, Gallente would get a drone based destroyer, Amarr would get a destroyer with a laser damage bonus (and swap a low slot into a mid slot!), Minmatar would get a destroyer with a falloff bonus (and swap a mid slot to a low, drop its shield and give it more armor). These could be as easy as reskins of the existing vessels for a first iteration.

A lesser proposal is to simply give the cormorant many more missile hardpoints without any missile bonuses. The Catalyst would get a 20m^3 drone bay, but would lose a turret hardpoint (and let's face it, the Catalyst is looking a bit OP right now when it can spit out 90% of the dps of the thorax, losing a little bit might make it more balaced).

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Malakai Draevyn
Internet SpaceShips Is Serious Business
#1218 - 2012-03-07 15:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Malakai Draevyn
Tippia wrote:
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600
No, only 1,552k — BC V and Dessy III. The rest are not being being split up. Some of the T2 role skills will have their prereqs reduced so as to not require lower-tier skills (HACs no longer requires AFs; CSes no longer require HACs and Logis; Recons no longer require CovOps), but that's all.


Hrm....

Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively (a 'locked down' increase of 4,656,000 SP to my character) as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1219 - 2012-03-07 15:43:13 UTC
Malakai Draevyn wrote:
Tetsel wrote:
Does this change mean: No more Drake/Cane blob during 1 week, while people retrain ?
Nice idea ! Hamsters will be happy !


No drake or cane blob for a week or two...
No command ships, recons, logistics, dictors, hictors, ceptors, blah blah blah for that same week or ten..... Oooh, yeah, seeing where this is going yet ? ;)

As I said above, CCP are gonna have to be damn careful how this is applied.


'If you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after'

There will be no retraining required.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Swearte Widfarend
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1220 - 2012-03-07 15:44:06 UTC
And as for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers, the ABSOLUTE WORST thing CCP could do would be to reimburse skill points in this situation. It makes the most sense to have the skills remapped based on the combination of Destroyer/Battlecruiser and the Frigate/Cruiser levels.

So if you have Destroyers V and Gallente Frigate V, Amarr Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate 4 and Caldari Frigate 3, you get
Gallente Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers 4 and Caldari Destroyers 3.

This might make some players lose T2 access to a couple variations of Interdictors or Command Ships, but if publicized now, the skills can be trained up to actually give you more ship options come Inferno than less.

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.