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Mass Effect 3: The good, the bad and the ugly.

Author
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-03-23 16:46:45 UTC
The indoctrination theory really is pretty perfect.

Anyone suggesting that people are reading too much into it are trolling or have paid no attention to the trilogy when they played it.

That said, to me, it would be even more of a slap in the face for bioware to write such a masterpiece and withhold the ending from me (a person who payed them $70 for a game, complete with ending) than for them to simply fail to write one to begin with.

Either way, they already got my money. Not a penny more.

You guys 'hold the line', unless the ending is a free dlc it's all water over the dam to me.
I pay money for me to play the games, not to have people play games with me.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2012-03-23 18:27:14 UTC
Quote:
That said, to me, it would be even more of a slap in the face for bioware to write such a masterpiece and withhold the ending from me (a person who payed them $70 for a game, complete with ending) than for them to simply fail to write one to begin with.


Agreed. Doing something awesome but making people pay extra to experience the full awesomeness is nearly as evil as doing something not-awesome.

I really hope whatever DLC/expansion they make is free, but it's EA, so... Ugh
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#143 - 2012-03-23 20:27:57 UTC
Arcosian wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
If you did everything right and choose the right ending you get a scene where Shepard lives.

I don't see how that would be possible unless the endings were a hallucination.... ;p

Well just because we get a scene with Shepard taking a breath at the end doesn't mean it's all a hallucination. If you look closely at the video you will notice he is buried in a large amount of rubble. Some of this rubble looks rectangular implying it's part of the support structure of the Citadel. And unfortunately a good example of this is that the rubble looks a lot like what they showed on TV after the World Trade Centers fell.

If Shepard was waking up on the street after Harbinger almost killed him with the laser there wouldn't be that much rubble laying around him and it would look more like what we saw when Shepard is running toward the beam. It seems to me like it's a way to continue the story if Bioware chooses to like Halo 3 did when MC gets in the stasis pod.


First of all there are 16 different endings at ME3. Of course with 3 colors only.

If you do a near perfect playthrough and choose the middle road ( unification of synthetic and organic life) you get a cutscene at the end where a small child asks Shepard (yes it says the name) when it can go to the stars (and the answer is someday you will). You don't see Shepard or anything clearly. It's just a night at the park with a moon glowing over. Something that implies that Shepard lived and somehow the civilizations lost again the ability to space travel?
Oh and Joker despite being upgraded (like all organic life apparently) was still unable to walk normally.

This is the thing that really got on my nerves. Show me you faggots something more definitive, instead of hints and blurry cut scenes. I want to know what the hell I managed to do.


At least that is what I got after i grinded ME3 to find all the artifacts I could. This ending (as well as the others too) are depended also on some key decisions made in the previous Mass Effect games.
Which means that in order to get that semi satisfying ending you have to have a character imported from ME2.

I understand the reasoning of the 3 endings and up to some point I can live with that. Yes the whole reasoning behind this ending is a philosophical question that we as mankind have only dealt so far at a theoretical level so far in Sci-fi books.

Still they could do a lot better than that.
AND another thing that seriously bugs me is the choice they made about the co-op multiplayer affecting the single player game.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-03-23 21:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran
Roosterton wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/aj/topreasons/34653-me3-indoctrination-theory-a-dlc

I'm fully on the indoctrination theory train now.

If true, it IS a brilliant ending.


It is appaling that the end is so full of plotholes and filled with bad writing it is even possible to fabricate this theory and make it seem plausible, which I find faintly hilariously silly.

I'll laugh like hell when Bioware decides to run with it to save their ass, but I believe that that was not their intent at all, their plot ending was just terrible writing, like most of the DA2 plot.


The indoctrination theory is so sad, why where people so unable to accept that the ending sucked? Bioware might roll with it now in an attempt to mollify fans or sell DLC but I doubt it was ever intended from the start. The five stages of grief describe the butt hurt perfectly.



Or maybe we're just wise enough to not take everything so literally and actually give human intelligence the credit it deserves?

I'll admit that there's a lot about the indoctrination theory which could just be explained away as "bad writing," but there's some stuff which is completely undeniable.

1. After you shoot Anderson, you're bleeding in the same spot where you shot him.

2. When you wake up from getting hit with Harbinger's beam, you hear that "the entire force was decimated, nobody got to the beam." Why didn't the person saying that see Shepard?

3. The first time you see the kid, in a duct on Earth, when Shepard gets interrupted by Anderson and the boy disappears, a Reaper growl can be heard. In one of the books, it's explained that this noise occurs when a reaper indoctrination attempt is thwarted.

4. James hearing an unusual "hum" on the Normandy. This line of dialogue would be completely pointless if it wasn't a hint that there's some semblence of indoctrination going on.

5. The rachni queen talks about how "oily shadows" caused her people to become indoctrinated once again. Later on in Shepard's dreams of the burning kid, you can see shimmering black, oily shadows, and at the end of the game when you're talking with the Illusive man, there are clear black, shadowy lines on the edge of the screen.

6. Shep's eyes. If you pick either "control" or "synthesis" - the options which the reapers want you to pick - your eyes very clearly become like The Illusive Man's, and before that, Saren's, two indoctrinated people. On the other hand, in "destroy," where you defy the reapers, your eyes very clearly remain the same.

More astute gamers will also note that the final area on the Citadel is actually a mixture of the Cerberus base, the Collector base, and the Shadow Broker's lair, all things which could just be assembled from Shepard's memories.

Why would the writers include any of these things if the ending was meant to be taken literally? If you can explain these things, then sure, maybe the theory is just a bad attempt to grasp at straws and believe the ending was good. But don't go around calling all of us butthurt because we're able to see and interpret things that you can't.


All points are made moot by the way the scene continues on after his "indoctrination". If he chose synthesis or control why show him the Normandy fleeing the blast? or the Mass Relays exploding?

By that point Shepard would have been under their control, they had no need to show him that. Surely they would have created something more positive if they had as well? The Mass relays going boom would wipe out billions, strand colonies and leaving them without food or medical care. That wouldn't be something positive enough to reinforce indoctrination.

Regarding being unable to see and interpret things, I have read the theory and I can certainly see what the nutters like you claim to see but I retain the ability to see it in a rational way. So I see it for what it really is, your all basically claiming "there was a tuft of grass on Rannoch, he is indoctrinated" or "see how that corpse in the Citadel was stacked? that's a representation of the brotherhood of singularitarianism, that means hes indoctrinated too!"

Just suck it up and accept it, the ending was bad and no little blue babys for you.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-03-23 22:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
All points are made moot by the way the scene continues on after his "indoctrination". If he chose synthesis or control why show him the Normandy fleeing the blast? or the Mass Relays exploding?

By that point Shepard would have been under their control, they had no need to show him that. Surely they would have created something more positive if they had as well? The Mass relays going boom would wipe out billions, strand colonies and leaving them without food or medical care. That wouldn't be something positive enough to reinforce indoctrination.


The whole point of indoctrination is that the victim genuinely believes they are acting for the good of the galaxy. Saren believed that Synthesis was the way of the future for organics. TIM believed that control was in the best interests for the future of humanity. By making it seem as though his friends survive if you choose Synthesis/Control, then when Shepard wakes up from the hallucination he'll believe Control/synthesis are in the best interest of his friends and allies.

The obvious follow up to this is; then why do we see it when you pick destroy? When you pick destroy, you're essentially breaking free from the reapers and denying their indoctrination attempt, so they have no more control over your dream. What happens afterwards is just Shepard envisioning the death of the reapers before being snapped back to reality beneath a pile of rubble (which can be seen if you have 4000+ EMS, and only if you choose destroy.)

Now, the exact inner workings of indoctrination induced dreams aren't made completely certain throughout the game, and nobody can claim to know for sure that this is how it would work or not work, but I'm sure something similar to that is logical.

Quote:
Regarding being unable to see and interpret things, I have read the theory and I can certainly see what the nutters like you claim to see but I retain the ability to see it in a rational way. So I see it for what it really is, your all basically claiming "there was a tuft of grass on Rannoch, he is indoctrinated" or "see how that corpse in the Citadel was stacked? that's a representation of the brotherhood of singularitarianism, that means hes indoctrinated too!"


No... we're drawing comparisons with obvious hints, hints which were purposefully dropped earlier throughout the series.

Why bother making the rachni queen mention "oily shadows" in the context of indoctrination if the oily shadows Shepard sees in his dream aren't significant at all? Why would the codex of ME2 bother to mention that people suffering from indoctrination hear buzzing, then have James complain of hearing a buzzing noise, only for it to mean nothing? Why bother showing Shepard bleeding from the spot where he shot Anderson? Why bother having the Shepard breathing scene ONLY if you pick destroy (and in London, no less)? Why have magical trees which only appear after you get hit by the beam, the same trees that appeared in your earlier dreams?

The list goes on and on. And there IS some stuff which could just be bad writing, or glitchy. You could say that Anderson looking at Shepard while talking with the illusive man was just bad animation and not symbolism for Anderson warning Shep that he's being indoctrinated, and I guess you could say that it's just for game mechanic purposes that the pistol in the final area has infinite ammo and can't harm the keepers. But there is a LOT of stuff which is irrefutable. Unless you want to start tackling some of the aformentioned points and stop throwing words like "nutter" around?
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-03-24 01:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran
Roosterton wrote:
Unless you want to start tackling some of the aformentioned points and stop throwing words like "nutter" around?


I really cant be bothered but in the interest of a meaningful discussion I will.

Roosterton wrote:
The whole point of indoctrination is that the victim genuinely believes they are acting for the good of the galaxy


Exactly, the destruction of the Mass Relays would kill billions instantly and doom billions more to suffering and a slow death through starvation and war. Thats not a good way to convince someone they are acting in anyone's best interests. Besides it still misses the point, if the theory is true by that point Shepard's indoctrination was complete so why risk breaking the indoctrination by showing him the destruction of the Relays? The Reapers could have shown him anything, so why not show him that the control/synthesis worked and everything was shiny and happy?

Roosterton wrote:
you're essentially breaking free from the reapers and denying their indoctrination attempt


Why bother with the indoctrination at all? The attack on the conduit had failed and Shepard would have been critically wounded, maybe even dying and completely at the mercy of Harbinger. There was no way they could stop Harbinger, it would have been more logical for Harbinger to either finish him off or capture Shepard and take him away to be indoctrinated at leisure rather than try to do it in a hurry in the ruins of London.

Roosterton wrote:
Why bother making the rachni queen mention "oily shadows" in the context of indoctrination if the oily shadows Shepard sees in his dream aren't significant at all? Why would the codex of ME2 bother to mention that people suffering from indoctrination hear buzzing, then have James complain of hearing a buzzing noise, only for it to mean nothing?


The Rachni queen always describes thoughts as colours and music, human and Rachni thought processes are so different its unlikely they would share the same experiences. Besides if there is a connection between the way the Rachni perceive aspects of indoctrination and the way humans do why didn't Shepard also see "sour yellow notes" and the other ways the Rachni queen has described indoctrination.

If James heard the buzzing then that would mean James is suffering indoctrination and not Shepard, The buzzing sound is an hallucination caused by indoctrination not the cause of indoctrination. It is also possible that there is a very good reason why there are some actual indoctrination references throughout the game. Indoctrination was supposedly going to be a mechanic in the game that got cut, maybe they didn't remove every single reference in the game.

The stuff like trees appearing and the way the Citadel looks when Shepard boards it and anything else cut scene and CGI related is very easy to explain. The CGI and cut scenes are almost all incredibly sloppy, from Thane being fully dressed in his hospital deathbed because Bioware couldn't be bothered to make a unique textured model to the way squad mates carry weapons that they cannot even use let alone different to the one you equipped them with almost all the cut scenes are sloppily and lazily made.

If Bioware couldn't be bothered to make some of the games key scenes look right I find it very hard to believe that they would have gone to all the effort to subtly illustrate indoctrination by some low key hints in certain cut scenes.

There are almost as many holes and errors with the Indoctrination theory as there are in the game itself. Which is more believable? That a lazily made game with huge plot holes, inconsistencies and mistakes had a bad ending or a developer that lazily made a game with huge plot holes, inconsistencies and mistakes subtly crafted a hidden plot line into the end of the game?

Occam's razor is usually the safest bet.

Then there are the endings where Earth gets destroyed and noone survives the crash of the Normandy. What does that have to do with Indoctrination? Why if your EMS is low do you only get the option to destroy the Reapers, which is supposedly the way to escape the indoctrination attempt. The allied assault was a failure yet they try to indoctrinate him by only giving the hallucination that would allow him to escape Reaper control?

So after that Shepard "breaks free" of the indoctrination attempt to have a dream of earth being destroyed? Sorry none of that makes sense at all. The only explanation for that is that the ending is literal, you didn't have enough of a fleet and there wasn't enough resources poured into the building of the Crucible which made it unstable.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-03-24 01:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
Exactly, the destruction of the Mass Relays would kill billions instantly and doom billions more to suffering and a slow death through starvation and war. Thats not a good way to convince someone they are acting in anyone's best interests. Besides it still misses the point, if the theory is true by that point Shepard's indoctrination was complete so why risk breaking the indoctrination by showing him the destruction of the Relays? The Reapers could have shown him anything, so why not show him that the control/synthesis worked and everything was shiny and happy?


On the contrary, consider this from the Reapers' point of view. They were, after all, the ones who built the relays so that galactic civilizations would develop down the paths that they desire. No relays means civilization isn't bound to this "trap" anymore, freeing them from the reaper threat. While a paragon Shepard might refuse to kill so many people for that purpose, it's plausible that a renegade might be pleased by this notion. And since the reapers are violent, negative, and pessimistic, why shouldn't the reapers assume that Shepard is the same?

Quote:
Why bother with the indoctrination at all? The attack on the conduit had failed and Shepard would have been critically wounded, maybe even dying and completely at the mercy of Harbinger. There was no way they could stop Harbinger, it would have been more logical for Harbinger to either finish him off or capture Shepard and take him away to be indoctrinated at leisure rather than try to do it in a hurry in the ruins of London.


You DID manage to unite the entire galaxy into a single fleet of badasses which was currently fighting the reapers head on. It's not entirely ridiculous to assume that the reapers were actually losing the battle, in which case Harbinger would want Shepard indoctrinated right then and there in order to manipulate the alliance fleet however necessary. A dead Shepard doesn't necessarily mean the fleet gets defeated, as it's still being led by Hackett & co. On the other hand, an indoctrinated Shepard telling the fleet to stand down and surrender for the purposes of trying to control the reapers could have devastating effects.

Re:Rachni - This is a valid point, I suppose. The rachni seem to have an obsession with music and sound, though, which could be why they would hear sour yellow notes while Shepard is only attuned to the sense of sight (the oily shadows.) On the other hand... Maybe that buzzing noise James hears IS a sour yellow note? (Not that I know how a musical note has a colour)

Re:James - It's not just James who hears the hum, see this video. You can clearly hear it, and it does sound somewhat reaperish. You might say that this is just some mechanical Normandy sound, but James has been serving on the Normandy for quite awhile - wouldn't he have noticed it before? As mentioned above, maybe this is what the rachni describe as a "sour yellow note."

Re:Trees - Sloppiness is a possibility, but what are the chances that they accidentally used the EXACT same trees that were used in Shepard's psychedelic dream sequences in the part of the game after you get hit by the beam? Additionally, this isn't only visible in a custscene, they're visible after you get up from taking the laser hit if you turn around and look behind you. There's clearly a tree sitting there which wasn't there before, and it's the same kind as the ones in your dreams.

Quote:
Then there are the endings where Earth gets destroyed and noone survives the crash of the Normandy. What does that have to do with Indoctrination? Why if your EMS is low do you only get the option to destroy the Reapers, which is supposedly the way to escape the indoctrination attempt. The allied assault was a failure yet they try to indoctrinate him by only giving the hallucination that would allow him to escape Reaper control?


Ah, but in this ending, if your EMS is too low, you don't see the scene of Shepard waking up afterwards, implying that he may die. And it makes sense; if your EMS is too low, the Reapers presumably wiped out your fleet, so they have little need for an indoctrinated Shepard. They just let you die rather than indoctrinating you, and as you're dying, your mind is flooded with depressing images of Earth being decimated. (Which it is - just not by the Crucible.)
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-03-24 01:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran
So what explanation is there for the extremely low EMS endings where Earth gets destroyed and the Normandy crew die? Why would the Reapers try to indoctrinate him by only giving him the option that would let him "break free" from the indoctrination attempt and then show him the vision of earth being destroyed?

In those endings the indoctrination theory makes no sense at all, if you look at it literally it makes perfect sense. (although it makes sense it doesn't make it a good ending)

Here is one of the Earth destroyed endings, how can the indoctrination theory fit that at all?


Roosterton wrote:
Ah, but in this ending, if your EMS is too low, you don't see the scene of Shepard waking up afterwards, implying that he may die. And it makes sense; if your EMS is too low, the Reapers presumably wiped out your fleet, so they have little need for an indoctrinated Shepard. They just let you die rather than indoctrinating you, and as you're dying, your mind is flooded with depressing images of Earth being decimated. (Which it is - just not by the Crucible.)


So why is that scene like the others? If that whole scene is an hallucination caused by an Indoctrination attempt why bother at all? If he was dead he wouldn't be having the hallucination, and the loss of the fleet means they have no need to indoctrinating him if he was alive.

Even in the face of that you still want to believe in the theory, I feel bad for you really. I apologise for the nutters comment it was a bit harsh.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2012-03-24 01:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
Here is one of the Earth destroyed endings, how can the indoctrination theory fit that at all?


The reapers just couldn't be bothered to indoctrinate him because they had won, and so Shepard ends up dreaming on his own.

Or, maybe Shepard is dreaming on his own regardless of what ending you get - it is possible that the "dream" is just Shepard's visual representation of the indoctrination attempt, and the reapers might not even be aware that Shepard is experiencing this dream, but are just unintentionally causing it because they try to indoctrinate him while he's unconscious. If your EMS is too low, Shepard ends up dying before the reapers are able to indoctrinate him, and he goes out envisioning all his friends dying horribly. If your EMS is high enough, though, Shepard lives long enough for Harbinger to indoctrinate him, which is why you get more endings.

Quote:
So why is that scene like the others? If that whole scene is an hallucination caused by an Indoctrination attempt why bother at all? If he was dead he wouldn't be having the hallucination, and the loss of the fleet means they have no need to indoctrinating him if he was alive.


He's having the hallucination as he dies, and the reason we don't get other options is because the reapers don't bother trying to finish off their indoctrination attempt.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-03-24 01:50:47 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
Here is one of the Earth destroyed endings, how can the indoctrination theory fit that at all?


The reapers just couldn't be bothered to indoctrinate him because they had won, and so Shepard ends up dreaming on his own.

Or, maybe Shepard is dreaming on his own regardless of what ending you get - it is possible that the "dream" is just Shepard's visual representation of the indoctrination attempt, and the reapers might not even be aware that Shepard is experiencing this dream, but are just unintentionally causing it because they try to indoctrinate him while he's unconscious. If your EMS is too low, Shepard ends up dying before the reapers are able to indoctrinate him, and he goes out envisioning all his friends dying horribly. If your EMS is high enough, though, Shepard lives long enough for Harbinger to indoctrinate him, which is why you get more endings.


Now you are really grasping at straws.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-03-24 01:52:08 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
Here is one of the Earth destroyed endings, how can the indoctrination theory fit that at all?


The reapers just couldn't be bothered to indoctrinate him because they had won, and so Shepard ends up dreaming on his own.

Or, maybe Shepard is dreaming on his own regardless of what ending you get - it is possible that the "dream" is just Shepard's visual representation of the indoctrination attempt, and the reapers might not even be aware that Shepard is experiencing this dream, but are just unintentionally causing it because they try to indoctrinate him while he's unconscious. If your EMS is too low, Shepard ends up dying before the reapers are able to indoctrinate him, and he goes out envisioning all his friends dying horribly. If your EMS is high enough, though, Shepard lives long enough for Harbinger to indoctrinate him, which is why you get more endings.


Now you are really grasping at straws.


Maybe, but your evidence isn't really hard proof. It doesn't discount all the other clues and bits, unless you manage to put down all these possibilities P
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-03-24 01:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran
Roosterton wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
Here is one of the Earth destroyed endings, how can the indoctrination theory fit that at all?


The reapers just couldn't be bothered to indoctrinate him because they had won, and so Shepard ends up dreaming on his own.

Or, maybe Shepard is dreaming on his own regardless of what ending you get - it is possible that the "dream" is just Shepard's visual representation of the indoctrination attempt, and the reapers might not even be aware that Shepard is experiencing this dream, but are just unintentionally causing it because they try to indoctrinate him while he's unconscious. If your EMS is too low, Shepard ends up dying before the reapers are able to indoctrinate him, and he goes out envisioning all his friends dying horribly. If your EMS is high enough, though, Shepard lives long enough for Harbinger to indoctrinate him, which is why you get more endings.


Now you are really grasping at straws.


Maybe, but your evidence isn't really hard proof. It doesn't discount all the other clues and bits, unless you manage to put down all these possibilities P


You seem fairly sensible, do you really believe that Shepard had a dream as he was dying about the Reapers trying to indoctrinate him by only offering him the option that would allow him to escape indoctrination attempt? I doubt that are daft enough to believe that. Also I don't know how you can have harder proof than one of the endings completely contradicting the indoctrination theory
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2012-03-24 02:22:41 UTC
Quote:
You seem fairly sensible, do you really believe that Shepard had a dream as he was dying about the Reapers trying to indoctrinate him by only offering him the option that would allow him to escape indoctrination attempt? I doubt that are daft enough to believe that. Also I don't know how you can have harder proof than one of the endings completely contradicting the indoctrination theory


It wasn't a dream about the reapers trying to indoctrinate him, it was a dream about him actually being successful, getting to the beam, and then failing horribly because he wasn't able to unite the galaxy well enough prior to his dream.

If Shepard knew the reapers were trying to indoctrinate him, it would somewhat defeat the purpose.
Reiisha
#154 - 2012-03-24 02:50:14 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
If you do a near perfect playthrough and choose the middle road ( unification of synthetic and organic life) you get a cutscene at the end where a small child asks Shepard (yes it says the name) when it can go to the stars (and the answer is someday you will).


You get that ending after every choice, it always plays after the credits.

The only real differences between the 3 endings is that if you have 4000 EMS and choose the red one, you get a scene where Shepard breathes while lying underneath rubble in London. This ONLY happens with the red ending and ONLY if you have 4000 or more EMS (and save Anderson, you need 5000 EMS if he dies).

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Keylah
#155 - 2012-03-27 16:38:18 UTC
Came across this and had a good laugh :)

Mordin Solus
Wild Rho
The Gentleman's Club
#156 - 2012-03-27 17:39:49 UTC
Well I'll never be able to look at male shep the same way again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpeRk1YFn8s&ob=av3e
Keylah
#157 - 2012-03-27 17:59:31 UTC
Wild Rho wrote:
Well I'll never be able to look at male shep the same way again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpeRk1YFn8s&ob=av3e


haha, that one is hillarious Lol
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#158 - 2012-03-28 11:16:58 UTC
It is a difficult choice between the brilliant and the hilariousCool