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T2 invention scenario: Use a datacore or not
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degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#1 - 2012-03-05 22:45:38 UTC
Hi,

So I am messing around with eveHQ and I have come across an item which takes 6h40m to invent. I can use no datacore, resulting in:

1.7M profit per item x 10 items = 17.3 M profit

However, if I add the Circular Logic datacore, it bumps the runs up to 19 and according to what I am seeing, takes the same amount of time to invent.

The new cost per item results in a per item profit of 1.58M now, but x 19 runs = 30M total profit.

My question is this: in order to capitalize on the time to invent being the same and make bpo's with more runs, is there more profit per hour in using the datacore? My reasoning says yes but I think I might be missing something, as typically datacores are not used non ship invention.

Thanks

Deg
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2012-03-05 22:54:45 UTC
Decryptor. Not datacore.

Anyway, 2 things you're not taking into consideration:

1: Invention isn't a sure thing. There's a % chance. Decryptors modify that. Circulatr logic drops it to 60% of what it was. so a 40% chance drops to a 26% chance. You're still needing to pay for the invention, the blueprint, and the data cores along with the decryptor. So check your figures against that chance.

2: It modifies the ME of the resulting BPC. So an ME -4 BPC will drop to -6. Which is reasonably significant, if the materials aren't extra materials.

I won't say that it's not possible. It's just not particularly likely.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-03-05 22:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajita al Tchar
Well, I think you might be missing something.

Decryptors don't affect invention time. They can affect invention chance, PE, ME and runs of the resultant BPC, and of course the cost of each invention run.

Circular Logic reduces your invention chance by 40% AND results in ME -6 blueprints. So, you are less likely to get a T2 BPC from each invention run and whatever T2 BPCs you do get from all your jobs with this decryptor, you'll be making them at ME -6 which can mean very significant increases in manufacturing costs. The number of runs being a lot higher may make up for it for some items, but in most cases it won't. I can't think of any cases off the top of my head where you're better off using Circular Logic-class decryptors over not using any at all, or using other decryptors (which do tend to be more expensive; with good reason...)

If you want to increase your ISK/hr, especially on items that take a while to invent, you really should just run the numbers in a spreadsheet for all decryptors. Ones that increase the resultant runs to 3, ME to -3 and PE to 0 are pretty good for many items that take a while to invent, for instance, those that increase the PE to 1 are fine if you're making something in very high volumes and the increases in cost are offset by the volume you're able to move, etc. Often, not using any decryptors at all is more advantageous.

Edit: damn it, I also said "datacore" every time instead of "decryptor", need coffee brb
degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#4 - 2012-03-05 23:09:31 UTC
Thanks folks.

I agree it is almost never the case that a decryptor is chosen over nothing, and the numbers I see in eveHQ for most items support that.

In this particular case, eveHQ takes into account success chance (success cost increases by 6M to 8M) so we go from 2M spread out over a 10run bpo to 8M spread out over a 19 run bpo. We get 200k invention cost per item in the first case, and 420k invention cost in the second case. As well, the decrease in ME has little effect on this item.

Essentially I am wondering if I can trust these numbers or if there is something missing from the calcs that isn't shown in eveHQ that I need to factor in.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-05 23:22:16 UTC
The +9 run BPO is used when most of the materials for something are mostly extra materials and not affected by ME. Keep in mind that you also bump your PE to -1, which means you can make items faster too.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-03-05 23:27:50 UTC
degini wrote:
Thanks folks.

I agree it is almost never the case that a decryptor is chosen over nothing, and the numbers I see in eveHQ for most items support that.

In this particular case, eveHQ takes into account success chance (success cost increases by 6M to 8M) so we go from 2M spread out over a 10run bpo to 8M spread out over a 19 run bpo. We get 200k invention cost per item in the first case, and 420k invention cost in the second case. As well, the decrease in ME has little effect on this item.

Essentially I am wondering if I can trust these numbers or if there is something missing from the calcs that isn't shown in eveHQ that I need to factor in.


How do other decryptors compare to Circular Logic on this item? If they are significantly better, then that's probably what's missing, but I'm going to guess that they don't make a big positive difference based on what you said.

In short, yes, it seems likely that you found something that works well with Circular Logic and you're not missing much (assuming there's a reasonably good market out there for the product in question, of course). One upside of this class of decryptors is their pricepoint: low. Chances are the effect on your wallet will be consistent with EveHQ's information. I personally have broken the decryptor usage conventions on specific items and occasions and was much happier for it. I'm inclined to trust a combination of numbers from my spreadsheets and intuition that the numbers aren't just good or bad, they are good or bad for my specific situation.
degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#7 - 2012-03-05 23:29:03 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
The +9 run BPO is used when most of the materials for something are mostly extra materials and not affected by ME. Keep in mind that you also bump your PE to -1, which means you can make items faster too.


Indeed, this seems to be the case. Thanks.
degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#8 - 2012-03-05 23:29:52 UTC
Ajita al Tchar wrote:
degini wrote:
Thanks folks.

I agree it is almost never the case that a decryptor is chosen over nothing, and the numbers I see in eveHQ for most items support that.

In this particular case, eveHQ takes into account success chance (success cost increases by 6M to 8M) so we go from 2M spread out over a 10run bpo to 8M spread out over a 19 run bpo. We get 200k invention cost per item in the first case, and 420k invention cost in the second case. As well, the decrease in ME has little effect on this item.

Essentially I am wondering if I can trust these numbers or if there is something missing from the calcs that isn't shown in eveHQ that I need to factor in.


How do other decryptors compare to Circular Logic on this item? If they are significantly better, then that's probably what's missing, but I'm going to guess that they don't make a big positive difference based on what you said.

In short, yes, it seems likely that you found something that works well with Circular Logic and you're not missing much (assuming there's a reasonably good market out there for the product in question, of course). One upside of this class of decryptors is their pricepoint: low. Chances are the effect on your wallet will be consistent with EveHQ's information. I personally have broken the decryptor usage conventions on specific items and occasions and was much happier for it. I'm inclined to trust a combination of numbers from my spreadsheets and intuition that the numbers aren't just good or bad, they are good or bad for my specific situation.


Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#9 - 2012-03-05 23:32:16 UTC
I'd run the numbers yourself in a spreadsheet. Just to be sure. I've had trouble with EveHQ's prices system.

Simple maths.

(Cost of datacores+ cost of decryptor + cost of BPC+ Cost to run the job + cost of meta item) * chance of success /100 = Cost per successful run

going from 6 million to 8 million seems a trifle low a change. Though I guess with high skills and an appropriate meta item, it could be right.

I've just got a spreadsheet that takes care of it all for me. I just need to plug in the datacores and % chance. (As I've not fully automated it. I could, but it's tiny amounts of work).

If you want to double check the % chance, there's a simple calculator on my site.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#10 - 2012-03-05 23:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: degini
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'd run the numbers yourself in a spreadsheet. Just to be sure. I've had trouble with EveHQ's prices system.

Simple maths.

(Cost of datacores+ cost of decryptor + cost of BPC+ Cost to run the job + cost of meta item) * chance of success /100 = Cost per successful run

going from 6 million to 8 million seems a trifle low a change. Though I guess with high skills and an appropriate meta item, it could be right.

I've just got a spreadsheet that takes care of it all for me. I just need to plug in the datacores and % chance. (As I've not fully automated it. I could, but it's tiny amounts of work).

If you want to double check the % chance, there's a simple calculator on my site.


It was going from 2.7M to 8M
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2012-03-05 23:43:18 UTC
oops. That explains it Smile

The real downside is, you'll have to run more invention jobs, to get it, with the reduced chance. That may or may not be a concern.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#12 - 2012-03-05 23:46:48 UTC
You can try using the program in my sig if you want to compare items and datacores on the same screen. Sometimes you make more isk per run, sometimes you don't. It all depends on the item and market prices.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
degini
Yo-Yodine Propulsion Systems
#13 - 2012-03-05 23:58:15 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
You can try using the program in my sig if you want to compare items and datacores on the same screen. Sometimes you make more isk per run, sometimes you don't. It all depends on the item and market prices.


Thanks for the second tool. Will help with comparisons.