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Aggression mechanics
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Crimson Arbosa
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-03-05 16:30:36 UTC
Need some help understanding the aggression mechanics in high sec.

Here's the scenario:

1) Destroyer warps in to mission area and loots wrecks. Goes flashy to me, and I assume my corp as well.
2) I take a shot at the destroyer and he warps off.
3) Figure he is going to re-ship and come back, so I call in corp mates to help and get in some pew pew.
4) Thief returns a bit later in a BC with a Logi as well.
5) BC aggresses me (goes flashy) and Logi reps him (also goes flashy to me), but don't go flashy red to my corpmates.

Can anyone help me understand why the BC and Logi wouldn't be aggressed to my corpmates in this scenario? Is it possible to have aggression to just one person and not their corpmates?

Troll control: No tears here, we were anticipating and looking for a fight, forum search and Evelopedia are unclear on the details of aggression mechanics.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#2 - 2012-03-05 16:59:12 UTC
It's because you shot him.

When you attack someone both involved parties gain a new 15 minute countdown against eachother that is separate from the corp aggression timer gained from stealing. Because you shot him he was able to come back and re-engage you after the corp aggression countdown had expired, but before your individual aggression countdowns had expired.
Crimson Arbosa
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-03-05 17:49:06 UTC
That's what we figured may have been the reason, but thank you for confirming it.

Shame really, we were looking for a fight and got caught between timers. But, it is nice to get clarification on the mechanics.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4 - 2012-03-05 17:55:09 UTC
Its a tactic that people use intentionally. What you want to do is have every single person in your fleet shoot him at the same time so he can't wait out aggression and pick off single targets.
Crimson Arbosa
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-03-05 18:10:42 UTC
He probably wouldn't have aggressed if more of us were there. And, we were trying to bait him to coming back in a bigger shinier ship we could counter-gank Twisted.

We thought when he re-aggressed that the corp would also get aggression, but were obviously wrong, and got caught between timers. Kudos to the pilot for knowing the mechanics better than us and using them to his/her advantage. And, thank you again for your help understanding the mechanics that make this possible.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2012-03-05 19:00:26 UTC
Crimson Arbosa wrote:
Need some help understanding the aggression mechanics in high sec.

Here's the scenario:

1) Destroyer warps in to mission area and loots wrecks. Goes flashy to me, and I assume my corp as well.
2) I take a shot at the destroyer and he warps off.
3) Figure he is going to re-ship and come back, so I call in corp mates to help and get in some pew pew.
4) Thief returns a bit later in a BC with a Logi as well.
5) BC aggresses me (goes flashy) and Logi reps him (also goes flashy to me), but don't go flashy red to my corpmates.

Can anyone help me understand why the BC and Logi wouldn't be aggressed to my corpmates in this scenario? Is it possible to have aggression to just one person and not their corpmates?

Troll control: No tears here, we were anticipating and looking for a fight, forum search and Evelopedia are unclear on the details of aggression mechanics.


Something might have changed since the last time I engaged in highsec, but this is how I would imagine it:

1.) When dessie warps in & loots wreck, you and your entire corp should gain permission to shoot him for 15 minutes.
2.) When you aggress, you and the dessie pilot gains permission to shoot you for 15 minutes from the last aggression.
3.) He returns with BC starts shooting. When the logi pilot reps the aggressed BC, it gains aggression via the BC, meaning anyone with permission to shoot the BC prior to the logi pilot cycling a repper can now shoot the logi pilot too.

I'm not completely certain this works with "theft" aggression anymore, as they might have changed this due to incursion logi AWOXing. If this is the case... your corp mates need to first shoot the BC, and then when they logi reps it with its next rep cycle, they will gain permission to shoot the logi too.

If your corp mates could NOT shoot the BC, the most likely explanation I can think of is it had been longer than 15 minutes since he last "stole" your corp's loot, yet still within 15 minutes of the last time either of you shot at the other. By being patient, and watching your timers, it's easy to create a window of time where you two can shoot each other, but your corp mates can't shoot him anymore (ex: he steals from loot at 11:00, sticks around, but doesnt' steal anything more... perhaps just salvages. Finally, you get annoyed at 11:05 and shoot him. He warps off, reships, and preps for battle. At 11:16, its been longer than 15 minutes from stealing, so your corp can no longer shoot him, but he can still find you and engage until 11:20.... )
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-03-05 21:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
If your corp mates still had aggression timers against the BC pilot they could gain aggression timers against the logi pilot as well by firing on the BC first while the logi is assisting him. This was the answer I got from a GM a long time ago when I asked about neutrals repping station camping reds in the very early days of faction warfare.

Because I live in low sec the only mechanics i really know is gate gun aggro. The single golden rule though is anyone you fire on is entitled to defend themselves no matter how many reasons you might have to shoot them. The guy just killed you 10 mins ago, you have kill rights from last week, he's -10 sec status and stole from your can and wreck plus he ninja salvaged and he hurt your feelings, you shoot him on a gate, he's got a green light to return fire aggro free.

I'm no expert on high sec aggression mechanics though, I haven't been able to enter high sec in a few years. Here's my general rule for high sec pvp: War dec or don't bother. High sec pvp is almost always a trap if you're not setting it then you're stepping into it, so just don't bother, someone asks you for a 1v1? He really means you vs. me and my 3 guardians, I have not played docking games ever and never will, if you want to fight go to low or null and fight. With alts if someone warps in on a mission or something I immediately abandon all wrecks 9/10 times they will warp right back out without even taking anything because you just took away the one thing they were really looking for: an easy kill.

EDIT: Yes I'm aware the last two in the list do not actually cause aggression.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Crimson Arbosa
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-03-05 22:24:57 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

If your corp mates could NOT shoot the BC, the most likely explanation I can think of is it had been longer than 15 minutes since he last "stole" your corp's loot, yet still within 15 minutes of the last time either of you shot at the other. By being patient, and watching your timers, it's easy to create a window of time where you two can shoot each other, but your corp mates can't shoot him anymore (ex: he steals from loot at 11:00, sticks around, but doesnt' steal anything more... perhaps just salvages. Finally, you get annoyed at 11:05 and shoot him. He warps off, reships, and preps for battle. At 11:16, its been longer than 15 minutes from stealing, so your corp can no longer shoot him, but he can still find you and engage until 11:20.... )



This is pretty much how it went down. Corp mates wanted to know why he wasn't red and should they aggress anyway, but I'm pretty sure since he wasn't flashy red to them that would have ended-up with Concord intervention.

We got gamed on the mechanics, but we learned a valuable lesson about aggression mechanics in high sec thanks to them and all who posted here.

Thanks again for the input, it has been very helpful.