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CCP, please update PI base prices for taxes
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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2012-03-05 15:28:51 UTC
Has you all know PI taxes are calculated based on these values:

Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK
Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK
Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK
Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK
Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK

Since the expansion was released, more than 3 months ago, the base prices have remain static but the market prices that were used to calculate them have changed -> Prices have dropped!

I would like to request CCP to update the base values of PI taxes to reflect current market changes, the same way and interval you update base prices for ship insurance purposes.

Thank you!

Based on this morning prices "Min Sell" and the "volume sold" in Jita I want to propose an update in the base values of the items so they reflect the current price average for each type:

Advanced Commodities: 1,100,000.00 ISK
Specialized Commodities: 33,300.00 ISK
Refined Commodities: 7,200.00 ISK
Basic commodities: 300.00 ISK
Planet Resources: 2,00 ISK

See this link for more details:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArwDZeNtSE3XdE55b2NxR2dyN09tenlwV2J3WGpIYUE

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#2 - 2012-03-05 19:04:59 UTC
Those numbers can only change every 6 months if needed. But then again I don't see how this will help anyone ?

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-05 19:29:28 UTC
Those numbers are highly variable by commodity. For example, there's a number of advanced commodities that are constantly above 1.5m. Very few specialized commodities are as low as you propose. Well, really all your other figures look exceptionally low.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-03-05 19:31:40 UTC
Invictra Atreides wrote:
Those numbers can only change every 6 months if needed. But then again I don't see how this will help anyone ?


I can't speak for everyone, but in my personal case it will HELP me save isk, some considerable ammount of it.

By keeping the base prices aligned with the market prices, the taxes we pay become more fair and we don't have to take from our already small profit margins to cover the diference between market and base prices when is time to pay taxes.

Tell me in RL when you buy something and pay VAT, do you pay VAT having in account the current price of the product at that time of the buy or the price of the product from 3 months back?

I understand CCP cannot update these values on a daily basis, but 3 months is a nice round number, having in account how volatile the market is in EVE.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
#5 - 2012-03-05 19:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Salcon Cliff
Make it like property tax...when the basis goes down, the rates go up! Big smile

So, sure, CCP adjusts the basis and increases the rates, so you pay the same...


And, although I generally only make robotics and smartfabs (specialized commodities), they sell for above 50k each at the moment (smartfabs closer to 60k), so those are not so far off.

Anyway, got POCOs and couldn't give a flip about taxes Cool. Oh, maybe they should raise them, that would be good.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-03-05 19:44:26 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
Those numbers are highly variable by commodity. For example, there's a number of advanced commodities that are constantly above 1.5m. Very few specialized commodities are as low as you propose. Well, really all your other figures look exceptionally low.


All the prices and volumes are from Jita taken today.

The metodology taken to calculate the everage can be discussed, I went for the one I think is more fair: - I calculate the average of the products by tier having in account their volumes sold.

I don't think is fair that a product that is expensive but sells very low numbers impose a higher average number over a product of the same tier that sell by the millions but is cheaper.

For example if there is a product A that sells for 1,500,000 and a B that sells for 1,000,000, the simple everage of the two will be 1,250.000. But having in account the volumes sold, things take a turn, for example if I only sold 1 unit of A and 10 units of B the average of these 2 products will be 1,045,454 and I think this number is more realistic and fair to be used as the base for taxes.

is a matter of opinion I guess...

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#7 - 2012-03-05 19:50:14 UTC
Goons do PI??

*boggle*
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#8 - 2012-03-05 21:04:27 UTC
@Unforgiven Storm If you lower the Tax then it will all be the same as before the taxes went up. Tell me where your profits bigger before they changed tax ?

Long ago when EVE still had the old Tax system everyone was happy, well not everyone. Those producing P4 have been paying 50.000 ISK per item for ages.

Did you know that Biofuels cost 65.00 ISK in the past. Today they cost 125.00 ISK minimum. Yes you pay 50 ISK Tax, but still get 75.00 ISK profit. In the end it's the same, tax or no tax. Lowering Tax won't give you more profit. Instead all items will become cheaper.

So you might think why doesn't CCP put the tax at 0%. It won't hurt anyone right? What about those that risked millions of ISK to build their own POCO. Won't they be cheated for their efforts of building and protecting a POCO. They will be the only ones that will get less profit if the tax gets lowered. In Null/WH/LowSec all Tax changes into profit.

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-05 21:54:06 UTC
Well, technically any change that makes customs offices less valuable directly hurts some people.

But more directly, right now if you assemble multiple steps on a planet like p1->p3 or p2->p4 you basically get to pocket the import/export tax you avoided by keeping the goods on world. (Market price for most things is the cost of components + taxes give or take a tiny margin.) Lowering taxes hurts those that buy your resources and assemble fancier ones from them.
Diamaht Nevain
EVE University
Ivy League
#10 - 2012-03-06 02:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamaht Nevain
I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec.

They are trying encourage more participation in PI but if there is no profit combined with the risks of seeking a safe outlet in low sec, why would anyone bother?

You are relatively safe in a wormhole I guess, but if you are not in a corp that can establish and protect your own customs offices I don't see the point in even trying PI.

Don't know what their data shows, but it seems these changes will discourage people from doing PI in-spite of all the good UI changes.
Uriel Walker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-03-06 11:44:44 UTC
Am I doing something wrong then? I buy P1 and produce P2/P3/P4 in HS.
Almost everything can be produced at a profit. Although it seems to me making P4 is not worth it in most cases since you can make more money selling the P3 components.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-03-06 12:00:24 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
I would like to request CCP to update the base values of PI taxes to reflect current market changes, the same way and interval you update base prices for ship insurance purposes.



I think you've not thought through the implications of all this.

As someone who has actively been putting up POCOs I find this to be a very bad idea. I've projected a given profit from POCOs at a given tax rate why do you want to fiddle with it now?

Especially, as contrary to your assertions, PI materials are MORE expensive, not less than when CCP announced the changes to POCOs.

And that's the rub - your timepoint for determining market value of commodities should not be when POCOs were introduced - by that point PI materials were riding a huge speculative bubble. Your real timepoint should be when POCOs were initially announced, and if you go by that timepoint you should raise the tax rate by around 50%, not drop it.

So I say leave it as is and live with it.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#13 - 2012-03-06 13:44:10 UTC
Uriel Walker wrote:
Am I doing something wrong then? I buy P1 and produce P2/P3/P4 in HS.
Almost everything can be produced at a profit. Although it seems to me making P4 is not worth it in most cases since you can make more money selling the P3 components.


Yes, you're doing something very wrong indeed. Imagine, giving (unfortunately only anecdotal) proof that argues against what the OP is saying.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Lol

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-03-06 21:50:22 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec.


You need to make them from stuff 2-3 steps down. When you do that you get to keep the P2 or P3 taxes. For example 1m in P1/P2 goods can be turned into a Broadcast Node each hour at IV skill. (You have to feed a couple P2s.) It's a pain, but you pocket 300-500k /hr. after taxes. If you turn P3 -> P4, that's not going to be profitable.
Diamaht Nevain
EVE University
Ivy League
#15 - 2012-03-07 02:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamaht Nevain
Mavnas wrote:
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec.


You need to make them from stuff 2-3 steps down. When you do that you get to keep the P2 or P3 taxes. For example 1m in P1/P2 goods can be turned into a Broadcast Node each hour at IV skill. (You have to feed a couple P2s.) It's a pain, but you pocket 300-500k /hr. after taxes. If you turn P3 -> P4, that's not going to be profitable.


Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.

Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-03-07 05:30:28 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.

Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied.


Umm... if you do the math the taxes you pay for making P4 and exporting them break down like this (generally, some P4 are extra painful).


P4 export = 135,000
P3 import = 18x 3.5k = 63k
P3 export = 18 x 7k = 126k
P2 import = 60x 450 = 27k
P2 export = 60 x 900 = 54k
P1 import = 480 x 25 = 12k
P1 export = 480 x 50 = 24k

If you try to do just the P3 -> P4 step on a world you can't possibly make money. If they dropped the price, the market would just adjust and you'd still not be able to make money. You would however lose a chance at the 250k or so you could make by avoiding the P2 and P3 tax.

PI in general is too much hassle for me, but I'll admit my industry alts have made some money from selling customs offices. (Running one also strikes me as too much of a hassle.)
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#17 - 2012-03-07 13:22:58 UTC
Please... just stop trying to do high-sec PI... you're messing up my profits.
Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
#18 - 2012-03-07 14:23:01 UTC
At the very basic level, CCP is trying to create incentives for POCOs. The only real way to do that is to keep the taxes somewhat high. If there is no incentive for POCOs (i.e. low taxes), then everyone would pay taxes and whatever the taxes end up being gets washed out in the market.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-03-07 15:05:49 UTC
Tax should be in integer number not in % of artificial prices.

This is your problem.
Diamaht Nevain
EVE University
Ivy League
#20 - 2012-03-07 16:31:38 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.

Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied.


Umm... if you do the math the taxes you pay for making P4 and exporting them break down like this (generally, some P4 are extra painful).


P4 export = 135,000
P3 import = 18x 3.5k = 63k
P3 export = 18 x 7k = 126k
P2 import = 60x 450 = 27k
P2 export = 60 x 900 = 54k
P1 import = 480 x 25 = 12k
P1 export = 480 x 50 = 24k

If you try to do just the P3 -> P4 step on a world you can't possibly make money. If they dropped the price, the market would just adjust and you'd still not be able to make money. You would however lose a chance at the 250k or so you could make by avoiding the P2 and P3 tax.

PI in general is too much hassle for me, but I'll admit my industry alts have made some money from selling customs offices. (Running one also strikes me as too much of a hassle.)


I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.

Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do.
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