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The rite of the tank, Shield or Armor?

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Hawklandier Taranogas
Old American Syndicate
Optimistic Wasteland
#1 - 2012-03-05 12:03:04 UTC
After getting a hearty response from my last post :) I decided to pitch a general question to the community. This one has been bugging me for ages, so im hoping for a good series of answers/comments on this one. Smile

Which is better?
SHIELDS
OR
ARMOR

Each one has its pro's and con's but iv mainly seen fleets of armor tanked ships (i.e. Hellcats) taking on important roles. (POS attacks, invasions etc). What makes armor Superior from the shield? Im caldari and i love my shields and my missles :3 (hybrids are ok but they still need a fair amount of work done) Wouldn't the shields natural recharge rate negate any incoming damage or am i thinking of it incorrectly?

Im trained in both T2 armor and shield tanking. So while it makes little difference to my performance as a whole; a good answer would be nice :D

Yours truly from some randomer :3

I have likes? How the hell did that happen? :D
Cryissa
Caldari Navy Operations
#2 - 2012-03-05 12:45:41 UTC
Does't it depend largely on the ship and your skils? If your skills are the same then Ship and setup for the situation you wish to use that ship in?

For example I am currently doing level 4's in a shield Navy Domi. Over 1.3k DPS with guns and Drones and have a friend who is shield boosting me while I support a good tank.

If I were alone I would go Armour Tank but know my DPS would stuff a little.
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-03-05 12:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Hammerstorm
This is from pvp perspective, for pve shields win straight out

Shield fleets work fine for large fleet engagements as well, see the alpha fleet for example. PL has also been using Rokhs, which get nice resistance bonus similar to abaddons. Wether you use armor or shield fleet mostly depends on the numbers you can field, both can accomplish pretty much the same thing.

It is however completely different when it comes to small gangs. Shield tanked ships are generally faster and have more low slots for gank. Not to mention that speed is essential when fighting outnumbered, and passive shield regen is nice after battles, where as for armor you need repper to repair the damage. While shield tanked ships generally sport lower EHP numbers, speed and maneuverability are often far more important than just the raw ehp eft shows.

So in conclusion, for big fleet engagements, either work. For small gangs, shields tend to be favored.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#4 - 2012-03-05 14:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Hawklandier Taranogas wrote:
Which is better? .......Each one has its pro's and con's


Neither is "better". Like you said they each have their pro's and cons (both active and passive kinds too). It really depends what style of play you or your corp use.

Buttom line is that you can train both reasonably well over a few months. So you can train your least favourite up to 80-90% of "All Level V" stats in a few weeks. ( I know OP says they have them both trained but just for anyone else reading this).

If I was in the position where I had to choose one and never be able to use the other I would choose shield because you can roll out on your own or in a small gang. Armor is deadly when tanked correctly but it performs less well in smaller gangs imo. But that's just me.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-05 14:26:00 UTC
Its really a matter of application.

Need to go fast
shield > armor

Need to be parked in a 120km of bubbles duking it out
armor > shield

Carebearing
passive shield> active >buffer (there are exceptions of course) shield or armor tank doesn't matter you fit the minimum tank for what you are doing and the rest is DPS.

PvPing
Buffer all day ....unless you are one of those that likes triple repper myrms and blue pilled to hell Cyclones and such.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2012-03-05 19:35:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Carebearing
passive shield> active >buffer (there are exceptions of course) shield or armor tank doesn't matter you fit the minimum tank for what you are doing and the rest is DPS.


This is wrong. Passive shield tanks are pretty meh for PvE because they require low slots where active shield tanks really don't.

Training both tank types is pretty much de rigueur once a character hits a certain age (probably about the time that opening up all the battlecruisers/medium T2 guns becomes relevant). The versatility it provides is pretty phenomenal and, as has been pointed out, the situation fitting options opened by fitting different tank styles add a considerable amount of functionality to any collection of ships.
Andrea Griffin
#7 - 2012-03-05 20:06:32 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Carebearing
passive shield> active >buffer (there are exceptions of course) shield or armor tank doesn't matter you fit the minimum tank for what you are doing and the rest is DPS.
This is wrong. Passive shield tanks are pretty meh for PvE because they require low slots where active shield tanks really don't.
Active tanks are definitely better for PvE. Once you learn to love the cap booster they get even better.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#8 - 2012-03-06 14:50:02 UTC
Armour tanked ships are generally Beefier in the buffer tank Department and can also fit more midslot utility (IE Abaddons with Double TC with either OMGWTFBBQ Optimal or Cruiser level tracking, or Rapiers with like 4 webs), as such they are often good for just soaking **** up then doling it straight back out again, armour also has slightly better base resists

Shield is faster and generally does more DPS, can have a Decent size buffer but not as big as armour ships.

Shield uses mids, whereas armour uses lows, thats about it really.

So shield for sniping and skirmishing, armour for slugging it out.
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-03-07 10:50:24 UTC
Both got their pros and cons (actually there are 3 possibilities, if you're splitting shields into buffer and regenerative tanks; 5 if you differentiate between permanent running repairers/boosters and pulsing use). Last time I armor tanked was on my Hurricane though. It's recommended to be used with armor tanking, but with a regenerative shield tank it gets even more durable (at the costs of some damage).

In general, you should base your strategy on the amount of mid/low slots being available or the added bonus stuff you'd like (e.g. damage bonus vs. signature bonus).

If there are more mid slots or you want to deal as much damage as possible, go for shield tanking (as damage modules go to low slots). If you don't care about damage or want to use utility modules (scramblers, webbers, target painters, etc.) go for armor. There are some ships that work with both approaches (e.g. the mentioned Hurricane), but in general, I'd say it's personal preference. Shields got the added bonus of having another layer of protection in case something goes wrong though (although it won't be as durable as the shields).

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-03-11 19:55:27 UTC
Both have pros and cons. Personally i think that shield tank is better for missions due to higher dps potential, eg a mach can be Armour tanked or shield tanked, but you will do a dam sight better if you shield tanked the mach than if you Armour tank.

Armour in my honest opinion is better for cap stability and tacking, tacking in pvp is a huge advantage if you have the ability to do so.

From a slightly different point of view shield tanking sounds more err "sexy" more advanced more futuristic more technologically advanced. Armour is well "slap some metal and bolt it on the four corners that will do it".

Both are great none is superior than the other but in certain given situations one would be more "effective" than the other.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-03-12 01:45:10 UTC
So many wrong "opinions" in this thread.

Shield > Armor

(Except capitals)
drdxie
#12 - 2012-03-12 02:11:58 UTC
The reason you seeing lots of Hellcats/armor fleets take on pos bashing and big long fleet engagements is possibly mainly due to the fact that you don't have a logistics nightmare for hauling ammo if you going a fair distance and you need to have a sizable buffer so the logi can get to you . If Nightmares were cheap.. you would probably see them instead of hellcats.
And most importantly.. lazors make pretty colours and sound cool...

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#13 - 2012-03-12 20:54:05 UTC
The shield=more dps myth really comes from minmatar pilots. On amarr ships and other ships designed with armor tanks in mind, which have up to 8 low slots, there is ample room for both.

More to the point is that armor=cap efficiency or buffer size at the cost of speed, and shield=throughput or speed at the cost of sig radius. Pick the best depending on your particular hull or purpose you are putting it to.

Overhaul Dscan!
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#14 - 2012-03-14 13:46:42 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
The shield=more dps myth really comes from minmatar pilots. On amarr ships and other ships designed with armor tanks in mind, which have up to 8 low slots, there is ample room for both.

More to the point is that armor=cap efficiency or buffer size at the cost of speed, and shield=throughput or speed at the cost of sig radius. Pick the best depending on your particular hull or purpose you are putting it to.


Yes and no

Standard armour cane tops out at 500ish DPS with faction ammo
Standard shield cane tops out at 617DPS with RF EMP

And no shield is not better than armour, armour fits utility in the mids.
Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-03-14 14:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Willl Adama
Pros and Cons, yes. It's impossible to say that either is better.

There are some general rules though. These are the most important ones imo (for pvp):

If you want to be fast and agile and do skirmish kind of fights, then shields are mostly better (because plates and armor rigs are bad for speed/agility and also you need your low slots for mods that increase DPS/damage projection/mobility).

Armor tanks are good if you need lots of utility, cause most utility mods go into mid slots (which would be ocupied by shield tank mods). That doesn't mean you can't have utility on a shield tank though.

Hi
Billy Kidd
Breaking Plaid
#16 - 2012-03-14 17:38:18 UTC
Considering that PVP is based around buffer tanks as opposed to active tanks, armor tanking has a clear advantage in the fact that given the same number of slots, an armor-tanked ship can gain a much greater number of hitpoints compared to shield-tanked ship. This is because the 1600mm rolled tungsten plate gives almost twice the hitpoint bonus compared to the large shield extender II.

However, the plate will reduce your agility and potentially your damage, since every plate you put on reduces the number of slots you can dedicate to damage mods. The shield extender, while not nearly as effective as the 1600mm plate, will not decrease your agility or your damage output.

So choosing an armor tank or a shield tank depends on the situation. Are you committed to a fight where mobility doesn't matter as much as sheer staying power? Then armor tank it is. Or are you in a situation that calls for hitting hard and escaping before your opponents regroup and overwhelm you? Then you might consider using shield tanked ships.
Hawklandier Taranogas
Old American Syndicate
Optimistic Wasteland
#17 - 2012-03-14 21:40:40 UTC
Iv left this open for a while and the comments you have guys put have been awesome! :D

Getting a much better understanding now xD
And you make very good points, most of you :P
And i still prefer shield tanks, but its given me a few ideas on how to change a few things on my ships.
At the moment im cruising around null-sec in a custom tempest in a pathetic attempt to re-create the fit from clear skies xD
Thanks for the awesome input guys really helps further my understanding. :)

I have likes? How the hell did that happen? :D
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#18 - 2012-03-14 22:18:09 UTC
Hawklandier Taranogas wrote:

At the moment im cruising around null-sec in a custom tempest in a pathetic attempt to re-create the fit from clear skies xD

What do you use for the Jovian power core? :P

Overhaul Dscan!