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[Legacy Repost] A New Caldari Cause
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Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-09-10 00:26:01 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

Now, of course, someone who works hard and has ability will rise up the corporate ladder. But that's not so different from the Amarrian way where slaves who apply themselves to becoming more Amarrian are freed, where commoners can become holders and where holders can become heirs.

Take a look at Catiz Tash-Murkon for example. She's an heir to the Imperial throne and the richest woman in the Empire. And her ancestors were slaves.

Like you say: those most suited to leading will lead, those most suited to following will follow, those most suited to serving will serve.


Ok Blake.

I have, for your convenience, highlighted the basic difference between the caldari way, and the amarrian.

As a matari individual, in the caldari system i could rise in the 'ranks' while maintaining my own heritage and beliefs, as long as i had the skill and drive to succeed.

The amarrian way on the other hand forces a slave to forego their heritage and their ancestral beliefs. if they refuse to do so, they are punished, imprisoned, or at worst infected with Vitoxin or implanted with TCMCs to control their activities.

one is a meritocracy, the other is barbarism. pure and simple. sanctioned ethnic cleansing, albeit a more passive variety than the one the Amarrian empire has been known to perform in the past.
Ilsenae Alexandros
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-09-10 02:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ilsenae Alexandros
For replies regarding the original post, please direct yourselves to this thread: Brothers in Red

EDIT: Nevermind.

To know the face of God is to know madness.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#23 - 2011-09-10 08:26:20 UTC
Would anyone care for my usual lecture on the virtues of anarcho-capitalism?


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Van Cleef
Group 303
#24 - 2011-09-11 02:40:51 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
The Caldari State was founded as, and has recently been restored to, a meritocracy. That is, a state of existence by which a being obtains their place through their merit. Those who are skilled and dedicated will exceed those who are not, yet even those who are dedicated and not as skilled will find a place and be compensated accordingly. "Each according to their merit."


You say that the State was founded as a meritocracy, and in that I assume you mean post exodus, and further state it was recently restored to a meritocracy. What did you consider the State to be, up until recently?
Altarr Orkot
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2011-09-11 06:27:33 UTC
Van Cleef wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
The Caldari State was founded as, and has recently been restored to, a meritocracy. That is, a state of existence by which a being obtains their place through their merit. Those who are skilled and dedicated will exceed those who are not, yet even those who are dedicated and not as skilled will find a place and be compensated accordingly. "Each according to their merit."


You say that the State was founded as a meritocracy, and in that I assume you mean post exodus, and further state it was recently restored to a meritocracy. What did you consider the State to be, up until recently?


At the risk - well, with the express purpose - of putting words in his mouth, he probably thought the State was an undignified, peaceful, mishmash of Gallente ideas and values; saved only by the 'shining example' of a 'pure Caldari warrior'.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2011-09-11 08:32:19 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:


As a matari individual, in the caldari system i could rise in the 'ranks' while maintaining my own heritage and beliefs, as long as i had the skill and drive to succeed.



Believe that if you like. But you probably won't get very far in the Caldari system if you put tribe before corporation.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#27 - 2011-09-11 08:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Rodj Blake wrote:
Dilaro thagriin wrote:


As a matari individual, in the caldari system i could rise in the 'ranks' while maintaining my own heritage and beliefs, as long as i had the skill and drive to succeed.



Believe that if you like. But you probably won't get very far in the Caldari system if you put tribe before corporation.


While that is true, Dilaro thagriin said nothing of putting tribe before corporation.

You're either putting words in his mouth, or you are confusing your own way of life with ours.

As long as his heritage and beliefs do not directly contradict corporate policy, there would be no issue at all with them. It is the Caldari way to tolerate outsiders so long as they stick to the rules, which rarely if ever dictate what spirits you worship or how you choose to ink your skin (as examples).

While we Caldari hold our culture dear to our hearts, and tolerate little insult to it, we do not require our heritage nor beliefs to be shared by those who join our way of life. Achurans are a shining example of this as dearly valued members of Caldari society, and they hold a seperate unique set of beliefs with a distinct heritage shared only in the last couple centuries by other Caldari.

The same is not true of the Empire. Within the Empire, there can only be one God. There is no tolerance for Matari spirituality nor heritage, not even as slaves.

Katrina Oniseki
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-09-11 09:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Altarr Orkot wrote:
Van Cleef wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
The Caldari State was founded as, and has recently been restored to, a meritocracy. That is, a state of existence by which a being obtains their place through their merit. Those who are skilled and dedicated will exceed those who are not, yet even those who are dedicated and not as skilled will find a place and be compensated accordingly. "Each according to their merit."


You say that the State was founded as a meritocracy, and in that I assume you mean post exodus, and further state it was recently restored to a meritocracy. What did you consider the State to be, up until recently?


At the risk - well, with the express purpose - of putting words in his mouth, he probably thought the State was an undignified, peaceful, mishmash of Gallente ideas and values; saved only by the 'shining example' of a 'pure Caldari warrior'.


Not exactly, no.

I believe that the Caldari State was filled with the practice of nepotism and underhanded compromise, which made it more of an aristocracy and less of a meritocracy. This inequity has been rectified recently.

As for my opinions on the aforementioned "shining example of a pure Caldari warrior," like all leaders he has done both good and evil in his wake. While I can appreciate the internal reformations that have strengthened the State and restored it to its previous meritocracy, I can also oppose the overly aggressive attitude and anti-Gallente sentiments espoused by the same individual. Further, I am one among the crowd that believes the State should not be a dictatorship and the parliamentary setup of the Chief Executive Panel should once again be given governing authority if the State is to truly return to its roots.

Katrina Oniseki wrote:


While we Caldari hold our culture dear to our hearts, and tolerate little insult to it, we do not require our heritage nor beliefs to be shared by those who join our way of life


I would go so far as to say because we hold culture dear to our hearts we are able to respect when others do the same and would not expect them to do otherwise.

~Malcolm Khross
Maya Erena
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-09-12 08:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Maya Erena
Oh, yes, Caldari culture and society is such a wonderful thing. It must feel spectacular to be fired from your corporation for scuffing some executives boot, and then dying of starvation in your one room apartment because there's literally not another place on the planet that will employ you. Or being born with some kind of disability or abnormality, and being the shame of your family for not being able to bring "Honor to your Corporation". Or perhaps dying a slow death from some painful disease because you're not "Smart" enough to get a position that can meet the cost?

Trying to stamp out your underdeveloped mess of a culture is the biggest favour the Federations ever done you.

I wasn't expecting this forum to be filled with this kind of ridiculous political sentiment. What a disappointment.

Bort Malice wrote:


Typical of a Gallantean to believe he is making an obvious statement while in fact proving the inherent weakness of the Federal "system".

1 I cannot see how this is so. Taken in aggregate the Federation has SHRUNK physically and economically in the last decade, and I do not see what form this "projection" has taken outside your own borders, barring the filth your holoreel vendors peddle.


Absolute and total nonsense - As I'd expect. The Federations size and economy has been stable and growing, with only a brief slump when Heth made the stupid mistake of thinking he could actually hold a few irrelevant systems. And in the years before that, there's been nothing but growth.
Nakal Ashera
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-09-12 09:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nakal Ashera
Maya Erena wrote:
Oh, yes, Caldari culture and society is such a wonderful thing. It must feel spectacular to be fired from your corporation for scuffing some executives boot, and then dying of starvation in your one room apartment because there's literally not another place on the planet that will employ you. Or being born with some kind of disability or abnormality, and being the shame of your family for not being able to bring "Honor to your Corporation". Or perhaps dying a slow death from some painful disease because you're not "Smart" enough to get a position that can meet the cost?

Trying to stamp out your underdeveloped mess of a culture is the biggest favour the Federations ever done you.

I wasn't expecting this forum to be filled with this kind of ridiculous political sentiment. What a disappointment.


I don't want to get into a... Discussion... But a correction on one minor point. Some of the statements you made tend to vary from corporation to corporation. For example, I understand that some elements of the state offer pensions to the the people they dismiss from employment.
Maya Erena
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-09-12 09:26:27 UTC
Nakal Ashera wrote:

I don't want to get into a... Discussion... But a correction on one minor point. Some of the statements you made tend to vary from corporation to corporation. For example, I understand that some elements of the state offer pensions to the the people they dismiss from employment.


I've never heard of anything like that. Even if it's true, it'd be very rare, as it goes against Caldari "ideals".

If anything, the fact that some corporations would adopt socialist ideas into their corporate structure just shows that they're doing the best they can to copy the Federation.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#32 - 2011-09-12 10:14:06 UTC
Maya Erena wrote:

Trying to stamp out your underdeveloped mess of a culture is the biggest favour the Federations ever done you.


I was willing to conduct civilized debate and discourse with you, until you said that. You do a great disservice to your people by speaking that way of a culture you do not understand.

Katrina Oniseki
Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
#33 - 2011-09-12 10:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul J Keating
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Maya Erena wrote:

Trying to stamp out your underdeveloped mess of a culture is the biggest favour the Federations ever done you.


I was willing to conduct civilized debate and discourse with you, until you said that. You do a great disservice to your people by speaking that way of a culture you do not understand.


Civilised discourse on the IGS? Surely you must be joking Madam Oniseki; this place is almost as bad as the Senate during election season.

It seems you have been ridiculously indoctrinated in your formative years, by whatever middle manager you worked under to believe that stating an opinion is: doing a 'disservice' to one's 'people'. What do you mean by 'your people' anyway? With that said, I in no way support Ms. Erena's ludicrous assertion about the War or the State.
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#34 - 2011-09-12 11:18:59 UTC
Maya Erena wrote:
Oh, yes, Caldari culture and society is such a wonderful thing. It must feel spectacular to be fired from your corporation for scuffing some executives boot, and then dying of starvation in your one room apartment because there's literally not another place on the planet that will employ you. Or being born with some kind of disability or abnormality, and being the shame of your family for not being able to bring "Honor to your Corporation". Or perhaps dying a slow death from some painful disease because you're not "Smart" enough to get a position that can meet the cost?


Even if this comment is very exaggerated, I find it hard to believe that you would think the Gallente culture is in anyway superior to the Caldari, or should I assume the Federation free of starvation, and unemployment...

Maya Erena wrote:
Trying to stamp out your underdeveloped mess of a culture is the biggest favour the Federations ever done you.


How pathetic.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Maya Erena
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-09-12 12:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Maya Erena
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

I was willing to conduct civilized debate and discourse with you, until you said that. You do a great disservice to your people by speaking that way of a culture you do not understand.

I'd rather speak my mind - and the truth - then coat my words in diplomacy and appeasement. A concept that, as a Caldari, is clearly utterly beyond your understanding, since you can't likely speak without choking on your own "Honor".

John Revenent wrote:
Even if this comment is very exaggerated, I find it hard to believe that you would think the Gallente culture is in anyway superior to the Caldari, or should I assume the Federation free of starvation, and unemployment...

The Federation has social security that prevents people from dying like animals when they get dropped for their jobs. Something the State doesn't share.

It's understandable, really, for a people who lived in a frozen wasteland. When you're fighting for survival, one is driven to cull the weak. However, that sort of thinking deserves to abandoned as soon as it's no longer needed to stay alive. But instead, you carry this inane "Survival complex" still, even though it's completely and utterly irrelevant and harmful to those who need to be protected the most.

John Revenent wrote:
How pathetic.

The only thing pathetic here is your inability to defend yourself against the obvious. The States ideals have no place in the modern world. Hence why they were practically already dead, before Heth came and propped up the corpse for his little cluster-wide tantrum.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#36 - 2011-09-12 12:42:34 UTC
Maya Erena wrote:

I'd rather speak my mind - and the truth - then coat my words in diplomacy and appeasement. A concept that, as a Caldari, is clearly utterly beyond your understanding, since you can't likely speak without choking on your own "Honor".


Except you're not speaking "the truth," you're speaking an ignorant perception and proclaiming it as truth. You have also done so with hostility and aggression when none was afforded to you which speaks negatively of your ability to be rational in the first place.

Maya Erena wrote:

The Federation has social security that prevents people from dying like animals when they get dropped for their jobs. Something the State doesn't share.


Again you demonstrate ignorance and hostility. If the State truly practiced what you claim it practices, it would be killing itself instead of developing. The evidence alone speaks counter to your argument, not to mention those within the society speaking against your outside, propaganda infused argument.

Maya Erena wrote:

It's understandable, really, for a people who lived in a frozen wasteland. When you're fighting for survival, one is driven to cull the weak. However, that sort of thinking deserves to abandoned as soon as it's no longer needed to stay alive. But instead, you carry this inane "Survival complex" still, even though it's completely and utterly irrelevant and harmful to those who need to be protected the most.


More ignorance spoken with an attempt at truth. The Caldari promote advancement and recognition based on merit. It is not a "survival" complex, it is a drive to constantly better oneself and subsequently those around you through your service. We have a society that emphasizes service to one another and the benefit of contributing to the whole instead of dwelling on the individual. It confuses me how you can claim to know so much about the State, even violently speak against it, yet understand so very little. It is as if you are upset because the Caldari actually focus on community rather than the individual.

Maya Erena wrote:

The only thing pathetic here is your inability to defend yourself against the obvious. The States ideals have no place in the modern world. Hence why they were practically already dead, before Heth came and propped up the corpse for his little cluster-wide tantrum.


The ideals of the State are needed in the modern world more than ever. The ideals of honor, service, duty, integrity and the sacrificial dedication to community and family above the selfishness of the individual stand in bold contrast to the self-absorbed mindset that dominates "modern" thinking like yours.

It pains me to see that you have so much hatred and hostility for something you clearly don't understand. You seek to judge a people based on a perception borne from ignorance and then try to boldly proclaim it as if it were truth while claiming that your Federation is superior in every way. It is nothing more than poorly veiled biased hate-speech, which is a horrible representation of your own Federation's ideals.

The State stands strong and united because it must. It will continue to do so because it must. We are the Caldari and we are still here. The sooner you realize that your misunderstanding of our culture breeds your unwarranted hatred of our people, the sooner you can begin your walk toward actual enlightenment.

~Malcolm Khross
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2011-09-12 12:50:15 UTC
Pots and kettles.
Ilsenae Alexandros
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-09-12 15:39:41 UTC
Maya Erena wrote:
Ignorant hate-filled propaganda bullcrap.


Who lit the fuse on your tampon?

Did some Civire workaholic stand you up at the altar or something?

To know the face of God is to know madness.
Lucian Alucard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-09-12 15:58:08 UTC
Ilsenae Alexandros wrote:
Maya Erena wrote:
Ignorant hate-filled propaganda bullcrap.


Who lit the fuse on your tampon?

Did some Civire workaholic stand you up at the altar or something?



Don't look at me. I steer away from Fedos, no stomach for the self diluted hypocrisy and the exaltation of their own superiority too the point it stinks too high heaven of them trying too convince themselves it's true and founded more then to any poor soul who may have too bare witness.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-09-12 16:39:09 UTC
Ilsenae Alexandros wrote:
Maya Erena wrote:
Ignorant hate-filled propaganda bullcrap.


Who lit the fuse on your tampon?

Did some Civire workaholic stand you up at the altar or something?


Not quite as...diplomatic as I'd have put it, kirjuun....but I guess it gets the point across.

More-or-less.

~Malcolm Khross