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[Tweak] Balance Minmatar EWAR with the other races (repost)
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-02 19:52:34 UTC
I'm reposting this to streamline my points about Minmatar EWAR vs. other race EWAR, because I received a large number of replies that were highly misrepresented and generally off-topic.

Point #1
Number of mid slots on electronic attack ships by race:
Amarr: 4
Gallente: 5
Minmatar: 4
Caldari: 5

Number of types of mid slot modules represented in skill bonuses on electronic attack ships by race:
Amarr: 1
Gallente: 2
Minmatar: 3
Caldari: 1

The overlying point here is that regardless of how good the modules are, the minmatar EWAR frigates don't have enough module room to put on enough EWAR to outshine some other random ship you could be flying instead. Thus, regardless of their other attributes, they are valueless ships that put nothing on the field and yet waste a pilot. The obvious solution is to move one of their low slots to a mid slot, and decrease the effectiveness of the modules to balance.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-03-02 20:51:46 UTC
I'm confused. Your title talks about all Minmatar ewar, but your post refers only to the EAF. Your proposal does not involve boosting Minmatar ewar per se, but the Minmatar EAF instead. Please can you clarify your proposal?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


The overlying point here is that regardless of how good the modules are, the minmatar EWAR frigates don't have enough module room to put on enough EWAR to outshine some other random ship you could be flying instead.


Other random ships do not get web range bonuses, so they can never replicate the web range of a Hyena.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Thus, regardless of their other attributes, they are valueless ships that put nothing on the field and yet waste a pilot.


Many would say that this holds true for all EAFs. You are arguing for a boost to the Hyena only; this can only be justified if it is agreed that the Hyena is significantly worse than the other EAFs. You need to support this assertion. Alternatively, you may decide that all EAFs need help.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-02 23:00:18 UTC
Oh dear God!

This a request to buff Minmatar EAF's!!!

You said it wasn't a buff to EAF's in your other post and our replies were 'off topic'.

As you were told in the other post (by the way? cross posting is frowned on by CCP) changing the slot lay out will not help the EAF's in the slightest.

The problem with them is they die as soon as someone in Jita sneezes. They have no range on the Ewar mods so have to fight stupidly close to anything that can kill them and with no tank you'd be better of flying something else.

The fact remains that ALL of the EAF's need attention and CCP has already acknowledged this.

As it stands, Minmatar EAF's are no better or worse than any other races....they all suck as they stand.

Again, not supporting this proposal.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-03-02 23:41:46 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
I'm confused. Your title talks about all Minmatar ewar, but your post refers only to the EAF. Your proposal does not involve boosting Minmatar ewar per se, but the Minmatar EAF instead. Please can you clarify your proposal?

Don't quote post #1 here. You're clearly too inept to understand it, so pretend it didn't happen. Focus ONLY on what I said in THIS one.

My first post was about a lot of things, and you all ignored the vast majority of it, therefore this one is only about ONE thing.

Gypsio III wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The overlying point here is that regardless of how good the modules are, the minmatar EWAR frigates don't have enough module room to put on enough EWAR to outshine some other random ship you could be flying instead.


Other random ships do not get web range bonuses, so they can never replicate the web range of a Hyena.

For every webifier that the Hyena fits, there is a target painter it is not fitting. Its bonuses represent three separate kinds of modules, thus unless it has all three present, it gets less than 4 bonuses. That leaves very little room to stack multiple effects on top of each other. That's my WHOLE point here. Not just a little part of it. That's my WHOLE point. A Hyena only paints significantly better than random fleet member X if either random fleet member X hasn't fit a painter, or if the Hyena has fit more than 1 painter. Same with the webifier, and on the point of range, while its range is much better, with multiple fleet members having webifiers equipped, there is generally a good chance that any given primary will have a webifier in range from one of the fleet members other than the Hyena. If you don't get this, just say "I don't get it". But don't make a huge rant about how I'm missing points that you're too lazy to read about in my posts.

Gypsio III wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Thus, regardless of their other attributes, they are valueless ships that put nothing on the field and yet waste a pilot.


Many would say that this holds true for all EAFs. You are arguing for a boost to the Hyena only; this can only be justified if it is agreed that the Hyena is significantly worse than the other EAFs. You need to support this assertion. Alternatively, you may decide that all EAFs need help.


Once again, claiming I didn't support why Hyena is worse than other EAFs because you're too lazy to read the part where I did. And even after I condensed it for you.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-03-02 23:59:06 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Don't quote post #1 here. You're clearly too inept to understand it, so pretend it didn't happen. Focus ONLY on what I said in THIS one.


This is incoherent. You tell me not to quote post #1, then you tell me to focus on it. You sound confused. Why does your thread title refer to Minmatar ewar in general, but your OP only talks about EAF? Please clarify this.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
For every webifier that the Hyena fits, there is a target painter it is not fitting. Its bonuses represent three separate kinds of modules, thus unless it has all three present, it gets less than 4 bonuses. That leaves very little room to stack multiple effects on top of each other. That's my WHOLE point here. Not just a little part of it. That's my WHOLE point.


Like the Keres, you mean? I don't understand why you regard this as acceptable for the Keres, but not for the Hyena. There is a logical fallacy here, I think, and a fundamental failure to grasp that ship balance is determined by more factors than adding up medslots.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


Once again, claiming I didn't support why Hyena is worse than other EAFs because you're too lazy to read the part where I did.


You have not shown why you believe the Hyena to be worse than the other EAFs, because you have not mentioned the other EAFs.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-03 00:52:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
I'm confused. Your title talks about all Minmatar ewar, but your post refers only to the EAF. Your proposal does not involve boosting Minmatar ewar per se, but the Minmatar EAF instead. Please can you clarify your proposal?

Don't quote post #1 here. You're clearly too inept to understand it, so pretend it didn't happen. Focus ONLY on what I said in THIS one.

My first post was about a lot of things, and you all ignored the vast majority of it, therefore this one is only about ONE thing.

Gypsio III wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The overlying point here is that regardless of how good the modules are, the minmatar EWAR frigates don't have enough module room to put on enough EWAR to outshine some other random ship you could be flying instead.


Other random ships do not get web range bonuses, so they can never replicate the web range of a Hyena.

For every webifier that the Hyena fits, there is a target painter it is not fitting. Its bonuses represent three separate kinds of modules, thus unless it has all three present, it gets less than 4 bonuses. That leaves very little room to stack multiple effects on top of each other. That's my WHOLE point here. Not just a little part of it. That's my WHOLE point. A Hyena only paints significantly better than random fleet member X if either random fleet member X hasn't fit a painter, or if the Hyena has fit more than 1 painter. Same with the webifier, and on the point of range, while its range is much better, with multiple fleet members having webifiers equipped, there is generally a good chance that any given primary will have a webifier in range from one of the fleet members other than the Hyena. If you don't get this, just say "I don't get it". But don't make a huge rant about how I'm missing points that you're too lazy to read about in my posts.



You haven't a clue what you're talking about so how do you expect anyone else to understand what you are talking about?

This is solely an attempt to buff one ship over the rest. Why should the Hyena only get a buff but the other EAF's get ignored?

Guess what? This is EVE where you have to make tough choices about your ship fit.

I would love to have a full rack of 425's, HAM II's, 4 Neuts, 3 TD II's, 4 ECM and a Bomb launcher on a Hurricane but I can't because the ship doesn't support it.

The Hyena doesn't support all of it's bonuses AT THE SAME TIME, so you need to choose. Tough life really. Roll

Seriously, you need to stop posting about this now.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#7 - 2012-03-03 04:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Point #1
Number of mid slots on electronic attack ships by race:
Amarr: 4
Gallente: 5
Minmatar: 4
Caldari: 5

Number of types of mid slot modules represented in skill bonuses on electronic attack ships by race:
Amarr: 1
Gallente: 2
Minmatar: 3
Caldari: 1


This is a horrible distortion of the actual data. Your 3 " types of mid slot modules represented in skill bonuses on electronic attack ships by race" is including the MWD sig reduction. Since prop mods are something every frigate fits, you're presenting a distorted viewpoint.

Here's another way of looking at that same data:

Distinct and bonused EWAR modules per racial EAF hull:
Sentinel: 3 (TDs, Neuts, and NOS)
Kitsune: 5 (4 different types of racial ECM and Multispec ECM)
Keres: 3 (Point, Scram, and Damps)
Hyena: 2 (web and TP)

Total number of slots per hull:
Sentinel: 12
Kitsune: 12
Keres: 12
Hyena: 12

So, by your logic, since all of the other EAFs have more EWAR modules they are bonused for, then all but the Hyena (especially the Kitsune) really need more slots. Personally, I'm not trying to say anything about the slot requirements of the EAFs, I'm saying that presenting data only from a slanted viewpoint that backs your position is shoddy posting at best. You should bring real logic and all the information to the discussion, not just the data that supports your position.

The EAFs are relatively balanced ATM; but they're all balanced in being paper-tanked primaries. It's not that the Hyena (or any of the EAFs) needs a buff, it's that EAFs as a class need a buff. Until the EAFs as a class are buffed, talking about individual ones is completely pointless.
Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#8 - 2012-03-03 10:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn
EAF do not need buff. it is a good thing they are paper thin primaries that's how they only get used in situtations they are probably meant to. i.e in a small frigate gang they are pretty cool.

if you want a ship which survives in a bigger gang take a recon ship.

tough world. you cannot wtfpwn everything with frigates. so sad.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#9 - 2012-03-03 11:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
EAF do not need buff. it is a good thing they are paper thin primaries that's how they only get used in situtations they are probably meant to. i.e in a small frigate gang they are pretty cool.

if you want a ship which survives in a bigger gang take a recon ship.

tough world. you cannot wtfpwn everything with frigates. so sad.

Yep, the least used ships in all of EVE don't need a buff - I mean FFS even titans (supposedly meant to be super rare) are used more often. Which is usually a sign that the class needs some loving.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-03 17:22:57 UTC
I love it when people come up with an idea that in theory is completely viable, then jump on the forums & fail horribly at explaining it... but it's everyone else's problem for not understanding their gibberish.

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