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PVP Machariel Fitting Question: T2 Guns or Faction
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Aurora Pendleton
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-01 22:22:16 UTC
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?

Forum threads have said T2 outdamages Faction guns at spec IV+ but for most arty/auto canons fitting recommends using T2 guns with Republic Fleet faction ammo. So that begs the question, with faction 800mm autocanons or 1400mm howizters with faction ammo, are they the better bet?
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-03-01 22:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy Marco
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?

Forum threads have said T2 outdamages Faction guns at spec IV+ but for most arty/auto canons fitting recommends using T2 guns with Republic Fleet faction ammo. So that begs the question, with faction 800mm autocanons or 1400mm howizters with faction ammo, are they the better bet?


T2 guns out dps faction with spec skill, and they are much cheaper as well. Faction ammo out dps T2 ammo in most situations.

So for the most damage in most situations you have T2 guns with faction ammo.

Officer guns out DPS T2, but please, for the love of god, just don't.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-03-01 22:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?

Forum threads have said T2 outdamages Faction guns at spec IV+ but for most arty/auto canons fitting recommends using T2 guns with Republic Fleet faction ammo. So that begs the question, with faction 800mm autocanons or 1400mm howizters with faction ammo, are they the better bet?


Faction guns and modules are 10x as expensive as tech 2 and only a marginal improvement (maybe 5%) over tier 2 at best, and a sidegrade or a downgrade at worst.

In PVE, you're not likely to lose your ship, so you want the best stuff you can afford, but in PVP it's very likely that something can go wrong, so you really want to balance affordability and power, which is why Tech 2 is far more popular than faction. The mach is already an expensive ship, so you 're polly tempted to spend another billion to min/max it, but that's just falling into the cost-sunk fallacy.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#4 - 2012-03-01 23:31:48 UTC
I thought about switching away from the T2 guns, but if I recall it was only a 3% improvement and a giant banner to anybody scanning my ship that it might be worth the investment to suicide it.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Aurora Pendleton
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-01 23:41:56 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
I thought about switching away from the T2 guns, but if I recall it was only a 3% improvement and a giant banner to anybody scanning my ship that it might be worth the investment to suicide it.


So faction autos/artys do more damage than T2s when armed with faction ammo? Most damage is really the only metric I care about.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2012-03-01 23:45:02 UTC
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?

Forum threads have said T2 outdamages Faction guns at spec IV+ but for most arty/auto canons fitting recommends using T2 guns with Republic Fleet faction ammo. So that begs the question, with faction 800mm autocanons or 1400mm howizters with faction ammo, are they the better bet?


Something appears to have gotten scrambled in the message here.

T2 guns (not missile launchers) outperform faction guns at spec 3 when both load the same ammunition. The fact that T2 guns can also load T2 ammo is just icing. Spec 4 or 5 widens the gap.

Furthermore, the difference between T2/faction/officer guns (again, not missile launchers) is in the damage modifier rather than the rate of fire. As a consequence, you get slightly more bang for your buck on high alpha weapons when you upgrade to officer (which is still a bad idea) but really not as much on high rate of fire weapons.
Adacia Calla
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-03-02 00:26:53 UTC
No contest:

T2 = Barrage.

Test signature....forum not applying settings :(
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-03-02 00:41:02 UTC
Adacia Calla wrote:
No contest:

T2 = Barrage.


Yes, Barrage is nice for actually applying damage at range. But the basic point is that you do more damage with T2 guns than faction guns if you load them with the same ammunition and can be bothered to train the spec skill all the way to... 3.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-03-02 01:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Riedle
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
MadMuppet wrote:
I thought about switching away from the T2 guns, but if I recall it was only a 3% improvement and a giant banner to anybody scanning my ship that it might be worth the investment to suicide it.


So faction autos/artys do more damage than T2s when armed with faction ammo? Most damage is really the only metric I care about.


No. You are losing out on your T2 bonuses by going faction guns. I am unaware of any faction guns out damaging T2 guns when skills are considered.

Edit:. You want to PVP in a machine and don't know this? Can I ask where you are likely to PVP with it?
Oh yeah, use faction guns.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#10 - 2012-03-02 02:34:57 UTC
My commet should have been clearer. With standard ammo you get 3% more(i'm cheap). WIth the good stuff, yeah, T2.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#11 - 2012-03-02 02:45:56 UTC
Riedle wrote:


Edit:. You want to PVP in a machine and don't know this? Can I ask where you are likely to PVP with it?
Oh yeah, use faction guns.


This is my thought as well.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mike712
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#12 - 2012-03-02 05:09:37 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
My commet should have been clearer. With standard ammo you get 3% more(i'm cheap). WIth the good stuff, yeah, T2.


You use standard ammo in PvP? Seriously no ones that cheap! (unless you're shooting a POS of course).

Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#13 - 2012-03-02 19:50:15 UTC
If you're going to use a 1b ship in PvP why would you worry about approx 10mil worth of faction ammo?

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
#14 - 2012-03-02 23:37:44 UTC
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
MadMuppet wrote:
I thought about switching away from the T2 guns, but if I recall it was only a 3% improvement and a giant banner to anybody scanning my ship that it might be worth the investment to suicide it.


So faction autos/artys do more damage than T2s when armed with faction ammo? Most damage is really the only metric I care about.


NO! Why can't you people figure it out. load up EFT and plug it in. T2 will always out DPS faction guns! Period!

the reason behind this is because you have the supporting skill giving you another bonus.

anyone who says otherwise is a troll

How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-03-03 00:02:27 UTC
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?


Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Most damage is really the only metric I care about.



Friendly reality check.

In lowsec you will get your machariel blown apart sooner or later regardless of what you are doing.

For most people, this makes cost an important metric to also consider. I.e.

Don't use officer guns - They do the most damage but are WAAAYYYY to expensive
Don't use faction guns - T2 guns with faction ammo do more damage

Use T2 guns - lucky for you they are both the second cheapest and deliver the second highest damage option.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-03-03 00:43:46 UTC
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
Simple questions: Should I go T2 or Faction autocanons/artys for my low-sec Machariel?

Forum threads have said T2 outdamages Faction guns at spec IV+ but for most arty/auto canons fitting recommends using T2 guns with Republic Fleet faction ammo. So that begs the question, with faction 800mm autocanons or 1400mm howizters with faction ammo, are they the better bet?


Officer is always better.
Has a potential looter I'd have a bigger smile if looting officer than faction. Serioulsy, think about it?
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
#17 - 2012-03-03 00:49:00 UTC
OP is clearly a ******.

wants to take a machariel into pvp
doesn't know the difference between faction and T2
doesn't know how to use EFT

I change my initial remark. Please go fit officer modules on your machariel, they are GREAT for solo PVP in low and nullsec. You will win!

How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#18 - 2012-03-03 06:13:15 UTC
A great place for machariel pvp is in the lonetrek lowsec area, near Saranen.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-03-03 10:40:37 UTC
I'll be surprised if this Mach makes it home from its maiden voyage Roll

Solo Rifter since 2009
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#20 - 2012-03-03 13:30:09 UTC
Kush Monster wrote:
Aurora Pendleton wrote:
MadMuppet wrote:
I thought about switching away from the T2 guns, but if I recall it was only a 3% improvement and a giant banner to anybody scanning my ship that it might be worth the investment to suicide it.


So faction autos/artys do more damage than T2s when armed with faction ammo? Most damage is really the only metric I care about.


NO! Why can't you people figure it out. load up EFT and plug it in. T2 will always out DPS faction guns! Period!

the reason behind this is because you have the supporting skill giving you another bonus.

anyone who says otherwise is a troll


Nope, not a troll, just realized I had read the descriptions wrong and had a math fail. With weapons specialization skills I thought the 2% bonus per level only applied to advanced ammo. The only way my statement would make any sense at all would be to say that you would get about 1% bonus with the faction guns only if your weapon specialization skill was at level 1 (and who the hell would only train it to one?). So I stand corrected.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
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