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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

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Author
Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
#201 - 2012-03-02 04:36:23 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Chiggy W wrote:


Have you guys considered the fact that most accounts only get dinged once because they just start up a new account once they get caught? I mean you've got to be a real mouthbreather to continue botting on an account that has been dinged once, so I think the metric that 1 temp ban is enough may be slightly flawed. Ultimately I guess it doesn't matter because even if perma-banned, the hardcore botters/RMT'ers are just going to start another account anyway, but I am certainly interested to know if you guys have considered this point, and how many accounts have their chars sold then go inactive after the first warning.


We didn't overlook that, but the solution to that is larger than the current discussion as working around that would lead to changes in design or how accounts are handled. We're moving into a world where that becomes less and less of a possibility but that can't happen overnight and the new team's existed for about a month or something. We need to progress in steps and if all I could deliver out of the door was The Ultimate Solution we'd never get anywhere.

Point being I think that yes, we do consider that fact and yes we'd like to make it less and less of an option.


I would imagine that the botting accounts IPs and IP ranges would be monitored after that, which would help catch the numbnutz getting caught, then immediately creating new accounts...
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2012-03-02 06:52:44 UTC
ファヌフェスットに 行けません お金がない 。でも 来年のファヌフェスットに 行きたい 。

Be ready CCP soundwave...Be ready....
deathpain
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#203 - 2012-03-02 07:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: deathpain
I would personally like to see Local dissapear from null sec, and not just for a botting point of view but a general combat view. I loved living in a wormhole and the fact that you was constantly under threat just made eve feel alot more intense for me. I left my wormhole a long time ago now and have lived in null sec since, but actually I feel really safe which just feels a shame. I can sit in a system for ages using my sexy Ishtar to kill rats with its sentries, and just hit scoop as soon as I see someone come into system which is rare enough on its own. So far that reason alone, lets loose local in null.

But on a botting view, it is seriously annoying that when you get a group of people together to go out roaming and you find some nice looking kill mails that they all instantly fly away and safe up as soon as your scout enter's system. If loosing local prevents this, it not only adds a extra feeling of danger to null sec, but also increases the ability to kill things and if you dont wish to die then you have to actually watch what your doing and stay safe.

I know alot of people will say they hate that DS now, but hell thats a great tool to use.

But as Sreegs wrote before, thats not down to him, but surely the fact that it damages botting, without the need to keep an eye on nullsec aswell as low and high will allow you guys to focus your man power more effieciently, and with allowing CCP to make blowing stuff up in null sec easier. We all know CCP love that...

As a second point, Sreegs I can imagine how difficult this job is for you. It must be difficult to catch these guys even with your funky software and I hope that funky " super secret " software is doing a good job. All faith in ya to beat the scurge of the galaxy. I have quit trading anywhere near trade hubs due to botters and we all know they are there.

What im wondering tho is you said somewhere about if you catch someone for botting that you basically tag all of there accounts as a botters so you can keep an eye on them. Can you really do that tho ? What I mean is surely they mask there IP address so that you cant see what there other accounts are.

If the answer to that is, I cant tell you, I understand but would be nice for an answer.

Also what about a policy " wont work for NPC but could help elsewhere " of giving corps/alliances punishments based on a botter being caught within there corp/alliance. From what I have seen some alliances that I wont name, actually havn't an issue with doing this stuff and promote it. If you punish them for this happening, then maybe eve citizens will be more inclined to force justice themselves to save there corp/alliance from getting hurt.

I remember a long time back we spotted someone within RAWR that we believed to be botting. We contacted our CEO to pass this information on, and the guy got killed multiple times and forced to stop botting or forced to leave. From what I remember he stopped pretty much immedietly. This kind of community change could be used to your advantage...

Yeah I know, a wall of text, thats nothing tho. Ask my corpies : )
Seb Seba
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-03-02 08:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Seb Seba
I really like this.
Hopefully it stays that way so mining profession can actually start being worth something.
I know a few people that like to mine but current ISK profit of it is very low. Killing bots will level prices and give miners what they should have from the start.
As a hub trader I actually have mixed feelings. Thx to trade bots I managed to buy A LOT of things waaaay under market price simply by dragging the bot dow to fill my order. You just needed a bit of time to figure it out. My best accomplishment in this field is managing to fill 8 buy orders on Machariels for over 100M less than sale price.
I dried that bot out ands made nice profit doing so.
BUT i do agree that it requires you to actually babysit your orders all the time.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#205 - 2012-03-02 08:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Looks a like a job well done, Sreegs.

I would also like some information about whether botting is done by certain alliances or whether its evenly spread as a phenomenon. This would maybe reduce some of the namecalling and fingerpointing thats going on without any proof.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

malaire
#206 - 2012-03-02 09:34:45 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
If it automates player actions it's a bot. Nothing unusual there... Nothing grey about it either.

How do you define "player action" ?

Opening market window for certain item is usually "player action", but that can also be done with javascript API call.

So would you consider using that javascript API call "automating player action" ?

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2012-03-02 09:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
malaire wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
If it automates player actions it's a bot. Nothing unusual there... Nothing grey about it either.

How do you define "player action" ?

Opening market window for certain item is usually "player action", but that can also be done with javascript API call.

So would you consider using that javascript API call "automating player action" ?

exactly

Ausri, visit http://eve-central.com/home/upload_suggest.html with your IGB for an example

Here's a forum thread (by malaire) on a practical application of the javascript API in connection with a cache reader (both ccp sanctioned tools).

.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#208 - 2012-03-02 09:38:50 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Adding to my post above with a practical example.

There's a 3rd party tool that has been announced weeks ago (has 20 or so forum pages!) that completely automates in game market prices gathering. It really opens the right window for you, fills in the right item for you, then switches to the next and so on.

With such cumbersome default UI, a player seeing such software would rejoyce!

But wait, is this software - residing on the official EvE forums but never "checked" legit? Or is it a bot? What to the dozens who use it? Until what point an end user is meant to be so much geek to know if a certain python thing is good, another is bad, a DLL is ok and another is not? This is the lack of "tools" I am talking about.

Hmmmmmm, last time I knew, the UI provided was the one we were all supposed to be using. And automating activities in game w/o player input is high up on the list of things we're *not* supposed to be doing. I know there are mods to use, using only the API pull. But I have a feeling that your not talking about that. So... Does it automate player actions?

If yes, I would consider it a bot. However, just pulling information (as long as no actions were taken - i.e. - filling orders, making orders or contracts, or accepting orders/contracts) - when it automates player decisions / actions - then it's bannable.

What are you going to have CCP do? Vet every addon that anyone ever comes out with?

Waste of time much?



To give you a little background, it's a combination of 2 tools.

1: Cache scraping for the prices data, to upload to sites.
2: Using the IGB javascript api to load price information (so it then show up in the cache)

The tool is nothing new. It's what's been done on eve-central for months (possibly/probably longer. I just don't have a date other than 'before I started'.


The only game manipulation is using the javascript calls that CCP have provided in their IGB. No changes are made. As far as I'm aware, it's been ok-ed as 'not botting'

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#209 - 2012-03-02 09:55:39 UTC
Death to all bots Twisted
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#210 - 2012-03-02 10:30:17 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Why do you feel the need to lie? Of course it was timed to be before fanfest. Nothing quite gets everybody pumped up and the circlejerking in full swing like a bot banning wave.

You only do a mass banning maybe once a year. Each time you do a mass banning, you claim its an ongoing process, but nothing changes until another annual ban party comes by. This happened last year, this happened with Unholy Rage.

Do you think anybody who would construct these bots wouldn't recognize the pattern?


Nothing you've said in this post is accurate. We did and have shown that we did a large amount of activity on a regular basis for months. I've given you some examples of where to find that information in this thread. We openly stated in this very blog that during a period of reorganization it was shut off. Were I a dishonest lad you'd have never known things were shut off. Were we clamoring for pre-fanfest attention you'd have gotten fanfare about the event rather than having to hear about it from other players, unless you're insinuating that I'm such a brilliant puppetmaster that this is all part of my master plan to gain whatever, in which case thanks!

You deciding it never happened doesn't make it so and I'm sorry if that was somehow not clear enough to you but there is enough of a portion of the playerbase who will choose to invent facts rather than digest them that it really becomes an exercise in futility to respond and difficult to have an open dialogue where I can present honest information. I'll go ahead and give it a shot anyway and suggest that you read the thread and if you don't like something we've done then state your case as it relates to the facts given rather than being rude and spreading misinformation. There's plenty of other threads on the internet to do that in. This isn't one of them.


I'll admit I don't know your schedule or what your team is doing behind the scenes, I'm not working at CCP, I'm just one of those lolcustomers you collectively tune out on the road to :AWSOME:. I just have what you get to say/write as for what is going on.

As I recall of last year's events, bots were banned, dev blogs were written and you were sent out to the forums. You then hosted your talks at fanfest about security, talked more about the process, what's going on and what's in the future. Then, all communication pretty much stopped. Now in the weeks leading up to this fanfest, the process/machine gets turned on and you get thrust back into public view. Bot banning, dev blogs, your forum posts start happening. All of this will probably dovetail into your talks and presentations at fanfest (I'd imagine)

Unless I'm seriously missing something, the timing has everything do with fanfest. If history repeats itself, we'll get more information now, at and shortly after fanfest then a whole lot of nothing in the way of communication.


I find it unfortunate that we haven't found the proper communication venue to reach you personally and specifically but your statement that communication simply ceased after fanfest is not even accurate as relates to dev blogs or these forums, nevermind the multitude of other venues we use to communicate such as external speaking engagements. I don't want to get in the way of a bitter meme-chain and as I said there were a couple of months where there was some restructuring going on, but to insinuate even that no communication has occurred for 6 months would be wrong much less over a year.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#211 - 2012-03-02 10:32:36 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
malaire wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
If it automates player actions it's a bot. Nothing unusual there... Nothing grey about it either.

How do you define "player action" ?

Opening market window for certain item is usually "player action", but that can also be done with javascript API call.

So would you consider using that javascript API call "automating player action" ?

exactly

Ausri, visit http://eve-central.com/home/upload_suggest.html with your IGB for an example

Here's a forum thread (by malaire) on a practical application of the javascript API in connection with a cache reader (both ccp sanctioned tools).


Could you please provide me with some link validating that CCP sanctions cache scraping?

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Endeavour Starfleet
#212 - 2012-03-02 10:39:10 UTC
Can we keep this topic about real solutions about botting instead of it becoming another "Nerf teh local" silly topic. Botting is a different matter than you not being able to get that juicy kill because a real player is paying attention.

Removing local wont kill botting. Hitting report bot is the best thing we can do. If you are running into juicy bot targets report them and let CCP get teh bot remove mail.


Now about this whole "Bot banz before teh Fanfest" thing. I do believe CCP has had some communication on the subject between these waves but I will say this.

While I applaud your efforts on this CCP you have to keep up the pressure on these botting idiots. And continue to talk about it and continue to urge people to use the report bot function. There has been far too many able to say "CCP likes botting because of PLEX" on this forum and it needs to stop. Constant communication will help.

I agree that 10 bot bans is better than a single message on the forums. However you simply cant let such rumors grow because they actively sap the morale of the active players. Even if it is as simple as "Ok report the botting idiot and let us get to work Twisted "
malaire
#213 - 2012-03-02 10:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: malaire
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Could you please provide me with some link validating that CCP sanctions cache scraping?

Petition created by "malaire" in Exploits category with subject "Is this javascript using market "bot" allowed?" on 2011-08-18 07:39, answered by GM Karidor on 2011-09-17 18:04

I would love to quote exact answer here, but unfortunately that is against forum rules. Sad

EDIT:

Also reverence, cache-reading library whose source code has actually been reviewed by CCP. (I'll trust Entity not to lie about that.)

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#214 - 2012-03-02 10:58:18 UTC
malaire wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Could you please provide me with some link validating that CCP sanctions cache scraping?

Petition created by "malaire" in Exploits category with subject "Is this javascript using market "bot" allowed?" on 2011-08-18 07:39, answered by GM Karidor on 2011-09-17 18:04

I would love to quote exact answer here, but unfortunately that is against forum rules. Sad



That's fine. The main reason I asked was more based on an earlier discussion about how these things are communicated than anything else. Thanks!

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2012-03-02 11:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
exactly

Ausri, visit http://eve-central.com/home/upload_suggest.html with your IGB for an example

Here's a forum thread (by malaire) on a practical application of the javascript API in connection with a cache reader (both ccp sanctioned tools).


Could you please provide me with some link validating that CCP sanctions cache scraping?

of course I can Big smile

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

GM Karidor wrote:

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.

Those policies are, at this point, unlikely to change anytime soon, but yes, we may revise them should we deem it necessary.


edit:

CCP Sreegs wrote:
That's fine. The main reason I asked was more based on an earlier discussion about how these things are communicated than anything else. Thanks!

CCP Sreegs wrote:
The forum is not the petition system. The forum never will be the petition system. You can petition both by sending an email to support@eveonline.com and by using the support link on the navigation of this website.

together with the ban on discussing petitions on these forums this makes it admittedly hard to communicate policies such as CCP's stance on cache scraping in a reliable way.
So we either have to rely on broad statements by other players (like entity) who tell us they have written petitions but can't tell us what the exact wording of petition and answer looked like, write our own petition on every single issue or hope for some friendly GM that doesn't adhere to your views P

(the "forum is not petition system" quote was taken out of immediate context but adequately represents the stock reaction of forum mods/GMs & devs to any question about rules/policies; and GM Karidor actually clarified some of the difficult areas I had pointed out while all answer you gave to the same questions in the thread that quote stems from was a trolling one-liner)

.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#216 - 2012-03-02 11:06:56 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Can we keep this topic about real solutions about botting instead of it becoming another "Nerf teh local" silly topic. Botting is a different matter than you not being able to get that juicy kill because a real player is paying attention.

Removing local wont kill botting. Hitting report bot is the best thing we can do. If you are running into juicy bot targets report them and let CCP get teh bot remove mail.


Now about this whole "Bot banz before teh Fanfest" thing. I do believe CCP has had some communication on the subject between these waves but I will say this.

While I applaud your efforts on this CCP you have to keep up the pressure on these botting idiots. And continue to talk about it and continue to urge people to use the report bot function. There has been far too many able to say "CCP likes botting because of PLEX" on this forum and it needs to stop. Constant communication will help.

I agree that 10 bot bans is better than a single message on the forums. However you simply cant let such rumors grow because they actively sap the morale of the active players. Even if it is as simple as "Ok report the botting idiot and let us get to work Twisted "


I don't disagree that we need to be better at communicating. It's something we've highlighted internally quite often and why I spend days following these threads.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#217 - 2012-03-02 11:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Could you please provide me with some link validating that CCP sanctions cache scraping?


Eactly. Plus almost all those applications use Python, DLLs and whatever.

If CCP in 3 months decides that those apps are bannable offense, how will players prove they were in good faith?


Also, CCP Sreegs sorry for being a pain in the **** but I am REALLY concerned into fitting in some of those patterns.

I am an heavy investor. Right today I gave 10 billions to a guy in exchange for collateral.

How can I protect myself against someone giving me botted / RMTed collateral? I know that person and he is very unlikely to be a cheater.

But in the past I DID receive BPOs as collateral from a guy. Only months later I got a mail stating he found out who loaned him the money for those BPOs was banned for RMT.


Another case: a third guy wants to hand me 100 billions soon. Will it trigger all sorts of "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA RMT ALERRRRRTTTTT" bells in your office?

How do I PROVE that I get legit ISK?
Lady Godwynn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2012-03-02 11:12:36 UTC
Hey Sreegs

As the focus of this thread has mainly been on PVE bots, I would just like to mention that
us traders have noticed a significant drop in botting activity in market hubs these past days.
If this is what EVE is like with less bots, then I shudder to think about having to play with all of them again
after having seen what it's like not to.

The effect of PVE/Mining bots is perhaps not as instant as they aren't up close and personal and affect
the macro level of the game more with increasing mineral prices / inflation. PVE bots have an effect
on the economy of EVE but they are not in your belts/missions/anoms interacting directly with other players.
In the marketplace you have to deal more directly with them as you see the same account update more
orders than is humanly possible.

Finally, I got a comment on this observation from another player in an MD thread that said that the void
created by the bots would just be filled by human players .01 isking me all day long. if so, then that's
pure win for CCP as more people, perhaps turned away from Jita trading by bots, would try their hands
at one more aspect of the game that they didn't use. Nothing would please me more than to play market
games with fallable humans rather than scripts.


Yours
Lady Godwynn
Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2012-03-02 11:24:19 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Can we keep this topic about real solutions about botting instead of it becoming another "Nerf teh local" silly topic. Botting is a different matter than you not being able to get that juicy kill because a real player is paying attention.

Removing local wont kill botting. Hitting report bot is the best thing we can do. If you are running into juicy bot targets report them and let CCP get teh bot remove mail.


Now about this whole "Bot banz before teh Fanfest" thing. I do believe CCP has had some communication on the subject between these waves but I will say this.

While I applaud your efforts on this CCP you have to keep up the pressure on these botting idiots. And continue to talk about it and continue to urge people to use the report bot function. There has been far too many able to say "CCP likes botting because of PLEX" on this forum and it needs to stop. Constant communication will help.

I agree that 10 bot bans is better than a single message on the forums. However you simply cant let such rumors grow because they actively sap the morale of the active players. Even if it is as simple as "Ok report the botting idiot and let us get to work Twisted "


I don't disagree that we need to be better at communicating. It's something we've highlighted internally quite often and why I spend days following these threads.


Releasing some sort of monthly statistics on the number of bans might be a good way to keep the playerbase informed as to the fact that this is ongoing.

.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#220 - 2012-03-02 11:27:32 UTC
Malcom Dax wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Can we keep this topic about real solutions about botting instead of it becoming another "Nerf teh local" silly topic. Botting is a different matter than you not being able to get that juicy kill because a real player is paying attention.

Removing local wont kill botting. Hitting report bot is the best thing we can do. If you are running into juicy bot targets report them and let CCP get teh bot remove mail.


Now about this whole "Bot banz before teh Fanfest" thing. I do believe CCP has had some communication on the subject between these waves but I will say this.

While I applaud your efforts on this CCP you have to keep up the pressure on these botting idiots. And continue to talk about it and continue to urge people to use the report bot function. There has been far too many able to say "CCP likes botting because of PLEX" on this forum and it needs to stop. Constant communication will help.

I agree that 10 bot bans is better than a single message on the forums. However you simply cant let such rumors grow because they actively sap the morale of the active players. Even if it is as simple as "Ok report the botting idiot and let us get to work Twisted "


I don't disagree that we need to be better at communicating. It's something we've highlighted internally quite often and why I spend days following these threads.


Releasing some sort of monthly statistics on the number of bans might be a good way to keep the playerbase informed as to the fact that this is ongoing.


That's something we've discussed but we always end up back at the point where there's no context for the numbers. If we don't know the scale completely then the numbers really don't have much meaning. That said something is better than nothing so once we've had a few days to let this percolate we'll sit down and see what we want to do long term.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012