These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

ECM nerf suggestion

Author
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-03-01 18:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL.


I stopped reading here.

You need to take another look at what game you're playing.


Should've read on further, they got the idea from RL then presented it in terms that make gameplay sense.

The fundamental problem with ECM (besides the mechanic, but one thing at a time...) is the way it scales. In mid-larger fleet fights, it's fine balance-wise. It's small gangs where it's a big problem - and the main solution to ECM for them is either bringing their own ship (great. More of those around, fun stuff) or to bring more people (yay blobbing!).

This idea keeps ECM viable at all fight sizes but nerfs it slightly in small gang engagements. I see no issues with this, frankly.
Hellanna
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-03-01 18:40:14 UTC
People still fly falcon/rook after the completely ship breaking range nerf?

Quick! Nerf them some more! ....

-1.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-03-01 18:45:10 UTC
Hellanna wrote:
ship breaking range nerf?

Hey look, someone else who apparently has no idea how to fly an ECM ship.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-01 20:52:53 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL.


I stopped reading here.

You need to take another look at what game you're playing.


Should've read on further, they got the idea from RL then presented it in terms that make gameplay sense.

The fundamental problem with ECM (besides the mechanic, but one thing at a time...) is the way it scales. In mid-larger fleet fights, it's fine balance-wise. It's small gangs where it's a big problem - and the main solution to ECM for them is either bringing their own ship (great. More of those around, fun stuff) or to bring more people (yay blobbing!).

This idea keeps ECM viable at all fight sizes but nerfs it slightly in small gang engagements. I see no issues with this, frankly.


Good idea or not, anyone who starts an idea with "In RL" is an idiot and not really worth listening to.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-01 21:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
In RL.


I stopped reading here.

You need to take another look at what game you're playing.


Should've read on further, they got the idea from RL then presented it in terms that make gameplay sense.

The fundamental problem with ECM (besides the mechanic, but one thing at a time...) is the way it scales. In mid-larger fleet fights, it's fine balance-wise. It's small gangs where it's a big problem - and the main solution to ECM for them is either bringing their own ship (great. More of those around, fun stuff) or to bring more people (yay blobbing!).

This idea keeps ECM viable at all fight sizes but nerfs it slightly in small gang engagements. I see no issues with this, frankly.


Good idea or not, anyone who starts an idea with "In RL" is an idiot and not really worth listening to.


All ideas are based "In RL". The more plausible something is, the more immersive it is.

ESPECIALLY in the sci-fi genre. In fact, there was a time when Sci-Fi was different from Fantasy; when the genre was authored by actual scientists portraying their views of the future based on current (at the time) scientific theories.

Anyone who believes that RL has no bearing on fiction is an idiot not worth listening to.
Amanda Sterling
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-03-01 22:26:06 UTC
No. ECM got greatly nerfed long ago. It is enough as it is.

Every ship and every tactic must have a situation where it has the advantage. For example, if you have a ship that is very powerful in close range, you know you have to get close to the enemy. What you're asking here in this example would be to reduce the strength of this ship in close range.

ECM's are powerful in small gangs. It is their strength.

I have been flying Rook, Blackbird and Scorpion for YEARS, and I think they're very well balanced right now.

So I give it a huge NO.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-03-01 22:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
No. ECM got greatly nerfed long ago. It is enough as it is.

And all said nerf did was bring an overpowered module down from 200km range to 70+. Yeah, so crippling.

Quote:
Every ship and every tactic must have a situation where it has the advantage. For example, if you have a ship that is very powerful in close range, you know you have to get close to the enemy. What you're asking here in this example would be to reduce the strength of this ship in close range.

Umm, what? Do you even know which mechanic you're talking about here? What this does is nerf the ability of ECM to shut down half a gang and narrows the role to anti-support.
ECM would still be useful and very powerful in said role, just not an I-win button vs virtually any ship you can name.

Quote:
ECM's are powerful in small gangs. It is their strength.

ECM is too powerful in small gangs, by a long way.

Quote:
I have been flying Rook, Blackbird and Scorpion for YEARS, and I think they're very well balanced right now.

Of course you do. Nobody wants their I-win button nerfed.
If you had a clue how to fly them on the other hand (or indeed the experience you claim), you'd have noticed by now how absurdly powerful a mechanic it is in smaller gangs.

The nerf a few years back only tackled one aspect of what makes ECM a broken mechanic - the 200km ranges people were managing on them. Nerfing that has gone some of the way to fixing things, but it still works very badly in terms of gang-size scaling, and actively encourages blobbing.
People throw out all sorts of "counters" to ECM that are largely bullshit, but know what the best counter of all is?
Bring more people.

Now you tell me how exactly that ^ is good for the game.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#28 - 2012-03-02 00:02:16 UTC
I'd like to thank all the responders that provided constructive criticism, and those that liked and endorsed the idea.

For those that are sceptical let me assure you ECM will still be enormously useful if this nerf is implemented. Ability to take out logi, that besides it's drones typically can't do anything to you, will always make your ships and ECM focused skill sets enormously useful in combat.

Also the way new mechanic works you might be able to get some more kill-mails for yourself. Just ECM some noob in light tackle from a tactical at long range, after he realises he can lock only you he is likely to approach you separating from his gang members, because he is a noob that does not know any better.Evil Then you can either kill him for solo kill-mail or you can warp out to another tactical before he puts a point on you if you think you can't take him out in time. It is good way to troll people while still keeping them in game. As it works now only thing ECM target can do is warp out, or not even that if he has point on him, not interesting, just boring. IMHO this nerf would make for a more entertaining game for all sides.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-02 02:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
No. ECM got greatly nerfed long ago. It is enough as it is.

And all said nerf did was bring an overpowered module down from 200km range to 70+. Yeah, so crippling.

blah blah blah


Try fitting an ECM ship for yourself and see how powerful they are. To make it so omgwtfoverpowered, they need to have all or almost all ECMs in the mid slots (that means no tackle), and they need whatever tiny buffer they can get in the low (that means no damage). And they still have paper-thin tanks.

Maybe try targetting these wtfpwnmobiles and you'll see that they fall apart under any fire whatsoever. Or maybe try flying one and you'll see that your own arguments fall apart under any fire whatsoever.

They are the best of the racial EWars, but they are balanced as they are. The other EWars are just situational or plain sucky.

(PS. They could have a range of a million meters and it wouldn't make a difference. At 140 km or so you can just warp on top of them.)
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#30 - 2012-03-02 03:20:37 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:

Try fitting an ECM ship for yourself and see how powerful they are. To make it so omgwtfoverpowered, they need to have all or almost all ECMs in the mid slots (that means no tackle), and they need whatever tiny buffer they can get in the low (that means no damage). And they still have paper-thin tanks.

Maybe try targetting these wtfpwnmobiles and you'll see that they fall apart under any fire whatsoever. Or maybe try flying one and you'll see that your own arguments fall apart under any fire whatsoever.

They are the best of the racial EWars, but they are balanced as they are. The other EWars are just situational or plain sucky.

(PS. They could have a range of a million meters and it wouldn't make a difference. At 140 km or so you can just warp on top of them.)


Would you considerer this nerf good if ECM ships would also get better tank as an compensation?

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Xiles Eilop
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#31 - 2012-03-02 06:15:50 UTC
Love the noobs who complain about the tanks on their Falcons/Rooks that sit 80k away as if that is some sort of balance..... I mean if your sweating bullets at those ranges then your a wuss... THE REASON YOU DONT FIT TANK IS BECAUSE YOUR NOT EVEN GONNA GET TOUCHED IF YOU FLY IT RIGHT...

Also that one fool who complained about RL as an inspiration for this new mechanic or any mechanic in EvE... How about you go play Hello Kitty Online instead..all those magical fairy tales and fantasy critters would suit you much better..

btw +1 for the OP, Best ECM idea yet.
Zindale
Spias Inc.
#32 - 2012-03-02 07:58:34 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Massive +1 to the OP.

Truely massive.

Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

1. Drones - I'm out of range of all but sentries. The only ships that can use those are a couple of battleships and two cruisers - hardly practical.
2. FoF missiles - utterly laughable. Even if I'm in range, and they fire at me, (two very big ifs there) they do pathetic DPS and most of them get shot down by my defenders. Yeah, FoFs barely even deserve a mention here.
3. ECCM - thanks for giving up a slot for something that only barely hinders me, guys. I've managed to get jams on 2 ECCM'd Basilisks at the same time before.


I agree with this all the way.

Yet I think that ECCM suffers from 2 major disavantages. First, it's really uneffective. Second, the module itself is ONLY, USEFULL, WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER JAMMING SHIPS.

Think about it. You counter Neuts with capboosters, which are still useful in pretty much all situations, right ?

You counter sensor dampeners with sensor boosters, right ?

You counter tracking disruptors with tracking enhancers/computers, right ?

The thing is, all those modules have an utility. I mean, having tracking enhancers is great even if you don't encounter Curses/Pilgrims/Sentinels, right ? Sensor boosters are still useful even if you don't encounter sensor dampening ships, right ?

ECCM is simply worthless if you don't encounter a jamming ship and if he isn't jamming you.

It needs a boost in terms of efficiency, and it needs to affect more than one of the ship's electronic parameters. It could provide a (smaller than a sensor booster's) boost to scan res and targetting range, it could provide an additionnal +5 lockable targets ? It could provide a reduction of the total jamming time or something like that.



No you are wrong

You do not fit capbooster to counter neuts, nor sensor boosters to counter sensor dampeners, nor tracking computers/ enhancers to counter tracking disrupters you fit these modules to boost your ship. The side effect is that these modules counter the others, and that is the only difference.

Plus if they brought a missile that was able to lock onto the ECM generator and attack the ship then it would be an insta kill basically, unless CCP changed the whole mechanics of how ECM works.

ECM like every other module in the game has a cycle time. This cycle time remains even if you stop the module. CCP would have to make it so ECM could switch on and off instantaneously, to counter this missile which would mean that is would be the only module in the game that did this and render the new missile basically useless before it was introduced. Therefore making the whole idea a non-starter

Mind you on the other hand being able to turn ECM on and off instantly would mean a major buff to the power of ECM so it might not be a bad idea afterall Evil
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#33 - 2012-03-02 08:27:27 UTC
I actually like this idea. It still allows ECM to do what it meant to do (act as a force multiplier by shutting down ships) while still allowing the target to actually do something about his/her situation.

However, because ECM ships would effectively "self-primary" themselves to an enemy (more so than they already do now), Id recommend that ECM-geared ships have their HP and/or resistances buffed a bit to take more of a direct beating.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#34 - 2012-03-02 10:52:12 UTC
I like the idea, but also agree that unless ecm boats get something in return (either hp or resist buff or something) to compensate, you will simply turn ecm boats into merely sacraficial bullseyes.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2012-03-02 11:56:58 UTC
Zindale wrote:

ECM like every other module in the game has a cycle time. This cycle time remains even if you stop the module. CCP would have to make it so ECM could switch on and off instantaneously, to counter this missile which would mean that is would be the only module in the game that did this and render the new missile basically useless before it was introduced. Therefore making the whole idea a non-starter

Mind you on the other hand being able to turn ECM on and off instantly would mean a major buff to the power of ECM so it might not be a bad idea afterall Evil

Yes, I considered that and of course it is problematic to introduce an on/off switch for ECM. I just threw in the idea that the RL counter is to shut off ECM, for discussion. It's not a refined idea for EVE and it would be a bad move to allow ECM modules to be simply switched on/off.

The missile would still work under the current circumstances though, where you cannot turn your ECM off instantly. You would have to use defender missiles - or get a better tank by ship buff.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-03-02 15:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
I like the idea, but also agree that unless ecm boats get something in return (either hp or resist buff or something) to compensate, you will simply turn ecm boats into merely sacraficial bullseyes.


I love how people keep saying ECM ships are fine because they have low tanks, apparently not realising that they're jamming at anything from 70-150+km. You'd be surprised how small an issue lack of tank is when you're that far out.

Also most proper ECM ships will still carry some buffer, my Falcon has something like 20k EHP which, while not award winning, is a long way from the "look at them funny and they explode" description people keep giving them.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-03-02 16:54:45 UTC
I think this would be an excellent change, however, it would definitely need some re-working of all the jamming bonused ships because its kinda uncool to give them zero tank AND make them primary.

But yeah, I support this, or at least some form of this. And yes, it does make sense that jamming would be a big obvious scream to your sensors.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-03-02 19:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
I like the idea, but also agree that unless ecm boats get something in return (either hp or resist buff or something) to compensate, you will simply turn ecm boats into merely sacraficial bullseyes.


I love how people keep saying ECM ships are fine because they have low tanks, apparently not realising that they're jamming at anything from 70-150+km. You'd be surprised how small an issue lack of tank is when you're that far out.

Also most proper ECM ships will still carry some buffer, my Falcon has something like 20k EHP which, while not award winning, is a long way from the "look at them funny and they explode" description people keep giving them.


If you're getting jammed at over 100 km, you can warp on top of them and use drones or FOF missiles. "But I'm being pointed by an interceptor and shot at by a hurricane!"... well then that's 3 vs 1 isn't it? You expect to win?

Falcons are tech 2 ships. Try getting 20k EHP on a Blackbird. You can fit less than half that on a Blackbird.

I like the idea. ECM is balanced but boring. This would make it a more interesting EWAR. Though ECM ships SHOULD be given additional buffer to compensate.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-03-02 19:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
f you're getting jammed at over 100 km etc.

In larger fights yes. In smaller gangs, completely impractical.

Quote:
use drones or FOF missiles.

See my previous posts on how drones and FoFs are an utter ******* joke vs ECM ships.

Quote:
ECM is balanced

At larger gang sizes, yes. At small gang size, it's stupidly OP.

Quote:
Try getting 20k EHP on a Blackbird

Blackbirds can jam further out than a Falcon, they don't need a 20k buffer.
Shandir
Indigo Archive
#40 - 2012-03-02 19:58:56 UTC
I like this idea, and agree that it would need to be balanced with a significant boost to tank-ability for ECM ships.
I think the other racial EW modules are all hideously underpowered, though, and need to be heavily boosted.