Ships & Modules

LOL

You are sadly mistaken, all I have to do is say the word and as many as I ask for (or can pay for) get delivered. ...I simply have no use for it at the moment.

My idea of small gang is sub 50 ships, usually more like 20(ish) nothing that doesn't float around pretty much anywhere everyday. I never said that 150 is a small gang, and if I did, please, show me where.

I'm involved in bigger stuff certainly, that is why I moved out to null. Play tag with people calling me a "blobber" all while they are they are batphoning to get a bigger gang got old in lowsec.


and by all means, please, continue making **** up you highness.

I remember Genos called me delusional when i said "there are people out there who consider 50-man 'small'".

Moral victory .

I am not disputing the fact you have to pay for the ship - that's a very normal thing. What you said when I suggested that you enlighten yourself as to what a Talos can do:


Yeah, your alliance logistics are so **** you can't even get a Talos imported. That's pretty bad.



I'm not sure why you think I linked you a battle report with 600 people and I don't think that would be possible. The battle report I linked contained 72 distinct people, of which:
- AAA: 18
- Dirt Nap Squad: 27
- Dragoons: 2
- En Garde: 1
- Hedonistic Imperative: 3
- Psychotic Tendencies: 11
- Rooks and Kings: 10

From what I can see, the sides were:
Psychotic Tendencies, Rooks and Kings, Dragoons, Hedonistic Imperative (26)
vs
Dirt Nap Squad, AAA, En Garde (46)

I'm more than willing to believe that R&K had some extra logistics and maybe even a triage carrier or two (it suits them very well). But, that still looks like well within the realm of what you would personally consider small gang combat. It was also a commentary on just how awesome those plate Oracles are.



You unironically tell me that 50 people is small gang combat and somehow think you aren't an epic mega blobber by the standards of the rest of Eve? Really?

-Liang

LOL at you people calling the Naga crap. The following battle report occurred in 2 phases; first a camping by a gang of 5pulse-plate(?) Oracles with lach/huginn/scimi; the second the Stain Empire naga fleet with naga/huginn/lach/claymore/scimis.

http://nem3sis.co.uk/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4342

The real losses are closer to 48-56, as this doesn't count losses of allies to Nem3sis.

The naga fleet were the real problem, sitting in the 120km range with the skiwmish-link boosted Lachesis pointing from 75-90km. Note this is 12 nagas., able to apha canes, all logis, all tackle. I'm not sure is a 17-20 man fleet is "small gang" enough for Liang, but they took on a fleet of 60 and racefaped for the loss of one ship.

If your Naga is having trouble tracking frigs, you haven't brought enough Huginns (with skirmish links, 50km webs, thanks!). If they can't go fast enough, you haven't got a Claymore (let alone boosting Loki).

Nice battle report! Did you get it on fraps? :D



No, I wouldn't generally call it small gang, but its not so hilariously out of touch that the rest of Eve would be sorely tempted to call it a fleet.

-Liang

On the Naga.



I don't think the Naga is crap, but it needs to be understood against it's background of racial balance next to class balance.

I think i wrote a piece on that in- or around the launch of Crucible with estimations and a short follow-up.

Mobile Sniping unsurprisingly revolve around mobility and sniping. The Naga has better sniping-capacity and worse mobility. The sniping-advtantage is more marginal than the mobility-disadvantage. Thus, the Naga is the worst of the new ships, but it isn't necessarily bad (or have an untolerable difference, which = imbalance). Looking at the Naga to it's peers make it much more balanced than other Caldari snipers (the Naga is much closer to the Tornado than the Eagle is [was] to the Muninn), while it's class-class balance put it closer to eg., the Rokh adding to the negative side of it. It's also closer to it's environment - the Naga can actually draw on it's advantage and do some unique or interesting things, which is positive. For all intents and purposes the Naga is quite alright.

The problem is that sniping is a racial trait, bonuses are divided in that manner and "100km mobile sniping" is the mainline form of sniping in today's game (it has been unselectively so since 2008 with the exception of BE's shortlived "unprobable sniping" project). Thus being the least mobile mean their trait is marginalized per standard, having a negative balance ontop of that mean the ships themselves are marginalized from their role.

Then throw that up against the background of recurring nerf-calls to other Caldari ships (Drakes, Tengus, Falcons) and you will understand why it's a sensitive topic.

To sum it up: the Naga is quite alright. The tier 3 BC have a fairly good class-balance. The class have a very poor balance to many other classes in the game. Minmatar is quite strong in several of it's racial traits (mobility, alpha, fitting), which is why they catch alot of flak on the forums. Amarr is also quite strong in it's racial traits (heavy armor; BS and Caps, organized incursion PvE etc). Gallente has gotten stronger, and slowly more accepted, in it's racial roles (rush, brawl, drones, top tier PvE etc). Caldari however have issues adapting an important part of it's role (sniping, for both turrets and missiles) while it's other roles are under constant siege and rocky in it's balance (heavy shield tanking, electronic warfare, entry level PvE etc). Where they are not necessarily stronger today outside of select ships (while those ships are under CSM-CCP review).

All in all, the Naga doesn't need a buff - and if i wanted to tweak or correct larger (racial-) balance issues, the Naga is not the first place i'd start either. That Caldari-only pilots looking at getting out of being "the overpowered Drake noob" are unhappy with it though, is understandable.

To expand on my post above - but going slightly off topic in this thread:

Now, if i wanted to deal with Caldari i'd probably do something like this:

Rebalance fitting and fine-tune performance of all missiles. Missile haters would not be too happy though, since any marginal nerfs to HML (which is balanced around having the longest optimal to no falloff, and reliable damage flow to it's drawbacks of applicable damage; so you can't drop it's range or core damage too much without breaking design concept) would be accompanied by major buffs to other missile systems (such as Cruise missiles and ships that use them, which should be, and thus overtake, a reliable projectible damage role around environment-reasonable ranges, like 100km).

I would leave the Drake and Tengu largely untouched (though i'd probably look over bonus application on all Tech III subsystems, to see if some mistakes were made in how bonuses apply). I would instead touch HAC, BS and Recon, giving Caldari at least one techy, strong, true mobile sniping option (pref. with missiles) that could in full enter into kiting-skirmish as well. If it takes one of the bonuses to achieve that, it is fine. I would look over ECM as an isolated system, and balance it (not nerf it). I'd adress it's poor scaling and exploitability (eg., one module per target), but i'd also adress it's cumbersome application for it's user (eg., scripts) and buff the pre-nerfed state of the Falcon (slots, bonuses, drones). If i already was halfway into a major overhaul of Caldari i'd probably touch on the tech one ECM platforms as well, balancing their ECM-to-other appeal, more similar to the Rook. Perhaps making the Scorpion a somewhat mobile ECM-Cruise sniper and the Raven a heavier tank-spank platform.

I'd also look into fitting options and usability of shield-based RR and Capital use.

In total, these things would be a massive buff to Caldari - it would marginalize Drakes a tad, make ECM less exploitable in "lowsec-like" situations and possibly take some PvE or general purpose PvP edge off the Tengu - but it would replace their roles that so many hate by other Cadari options, giving true 2km/s kiting missile snipers, new 1km/s 100-150km missile heavy hitters and new projection-bricks (oversized Drakes). It would also mean less Falcon "permajam" blankets on few small-gang pilots, but it would mean more powerful Rook-like action and ECM in larger balanced fights. People will blob with that and cause ECM-rage. No matter how you balance, Caldari will always be Caldari until CCP decide to change their whole racial profile.

That is balance as opposed to underbalance - something else will overtake the role, it's not like brick-projection, missile-reliability or ECM will disappear, it's in the bonuses and traits.

hi, Talos is easy mode.

thanks for reading.

Until someone bring mass sniping drakes or Tengu's then Cerb gets smushed pretty quickly. For all of their advantages, you need an opponent in close range battleships or BC's for it to really work.

Basically pulse baddons or canes.

Large turrets inside point range (exempting blasters now) is generally a bad idea IMO...more so with pulses that have pretty crappy tracking as a design feature to start with.

AC's are kinda workable, but far from optimal. Oracles are better off with a meatshield of some sort and about 25km of range.