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[Tweak] Balance Minmatar EWAR with the other races
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-02-28 09:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Minmatar EWAR consists of target painters and stasis webifiers. Everyone uses them, but the Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them. Why, then, if they are so popular, do some of these specialized ships never get used?

I see some problems with Minmatar EWAR, and have brought some solutions; both to nerf the over powered and to buff the underpowered, to bring these EWAR ships into usage and to smooth out this particular field of EWAR.

Item #1: Stasis Webifier Velocity Reduction Bonus
The ships that have this bonus to my knowledge are the Cruor, Daredevil, Ashimmu, Vigilant, and Vindicator. At skill level 5, they have a 50% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. With a tech 2 stasis webifier, this results in a 90% velocity reduction from only one webifier. Considering stacking penalties, it would take 5 tech II stasis webifiers to reduce a target's velocity by 90% without this skill bonus, therefore it seems way out of proportion. I propose that the 50% bonus be calculated in a different way:

target's speed = x
speed reduction factor = y

x
--- = normal speed reduction
y

x
--------- = speed reduction with level 5 ship skill bonus
y * 1.5

This would cause the total speed reduction from one webifier on a ship with the speed reduction bonus at level 5 to be 73.3%. This is quite a bit of speed reduction, almost as much as 2 webifiers without the bonus. If multiple webifiers are used with the bonus, the target's speed can be reduced to a negligible amount. However it leaves a potential reason to fit more than 1 webifier, rather than leaving 1 webifier to be the end all be all of webbing, or, God forbid, allow a single ship to web several ships near it almost to a complete standstill.

Item #2: Poor slot layout for the Vigil and Hyena
Anyone flying an EWAR frigate in pvp usually does so in a decent-sized group, and will fit the ship for all-out EWAR potency, knowing that it won't last long in enemy fire no matter how it's fit. The idea is either to subdue the opponents and not allow them to attack the frigate, or in the case of the Vigil or Hyena, make sure the opponents don't have time to attack the frigate.

The Vigil has 3 mid slots, and the Hyena has 4 mid slots. This is room for one prop module (always a good thing to have), 1 webifier, and 1 or 2 target painters. And then there are 3 low slots which could maybe be used for some tank, or a bit of speed/agility boost perhaps. They're not particularly useful for anything, really. If they were mid slots, they could just as easily be used for tank. Or they could be used for more target painters or stasis webifiers.

If they had 5 or 6 mid slots, they could fit a prop module with 2 stasis webifiers and 2-3 target painters. These webifiers can be used to web two separate targets, or (since the ships do not have a velocity reduction bonus) to stack together to really slow a target down. With 2-3 target painters on a target and that hefty minmatar frigate skill bonus to target painters, a ship's signature radius can be blown up even more than double. The Vigil or Hyena won't last long, but with that kind of power, they can turn the tide of battle in seconds. And that would make them worth fielding. As they are, nobody flies them because it's just easier and more effective to put the odd target painter or stasis webifier on random ships throughout the fleet who happen to have an extra slot handy, and they get no skill bonuses to this EWAR.

Item #3: No rigs for Minmatar EWAR
Granted, the Particle Disperson Projector increases the range of target painters as well as other EWAR modules, but there are none that increase the effectiveness of minmatar EWAR. The Particle Dispersion Projector doesn't even increase the range of webifiers, which given their short range would in many cases be akin to increasing their effectiveness. Also, target painter range is so long that in most cases, its range is a non-factor.

I propose the following rigs be added:
Signature Projection Amplifier I
Increases the effectiveness of fitted target painters by 5% at the expense of 10% shield HP.
Calibration cost: 200
Signature Projection Amplifier II
Increases the effectiveness of fitted target painters by 7.5% at the expense of 10% shield HP.
Calibration cost: 300

Propulsion Jamming Projector I
Increases the optimal range of fitted warp scramblers, warp disruptors, and stasis webifiers by 10% at the cost of 10% shields.
Calibration cost: 100
Propulsion Jamming Projector II
Increases the optimal range of fitted warp scramblers, warp disruptors, and stasis webifiers by 15% at the cost of 10% shields.
Calibration cost: 150

===============================================================================
That's all I have to say about that. I hope anyone who reads this can agree that Minmatar EWAR could use some looking at, plus a bit of quick and easy balancing. This stuff seems pretty obvious, really. I can only guess that nobody at CCP has taken very much time to examine this particular field in-depth.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-28 14:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Posting in a "buff Minmatar" thread. Albeit one that claims that Huginns and Rapiers are never used. Anyway....

Six medslots for the Vigil? Come on, the race with the most medslots is supposed to be Caldari. And Minmatar ewar is supposed to be poorer because of Minmatar's advantages in mobility and sig. All those electronic jobbies are heavy and take a lot of power, adding more will slow your ships and increase your sig, you know... Blink
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-02-28 15:13:55 UTC
Just because you don't use them does not mean they are not used.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-28 16:35:04 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Posting in a "buff Minmatar" thread. Albeit one that claims that Huginns and Rapiers are never used. Anyway....

Six medslots for the Vigil? Come on, the race with the most medslots is supposed to be Caldari. And Minmatar ewar is supposed to be poorer because of Minmatar's advantages in mobility and sig. All those electronic jobbies are heavy and take a lot of power, adding more will slow your ships and increase your sig, you know... Blink


I never claimed that Huginns and Rapiers aren't used, and I would never do that.

I merely used 6 mid slots as an example, and it was intended only for the Hyena. 5 would be fine. But 4 is too few. And 3 on the Vigil is way too few.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-28 16:45:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Posting in a "buff Minmatar" thread. Albeit one that claims that Huginns and Rapiers are never used. Anyway....

Six medslots for the Vigil? Come on, the race with the most medslots is supposed to be Caldari. And Minmatar ewar is supposed to be poorer because of Minmatar's advantages in mobility and sig. All those electronic jobbies are heavy and take a lot of power, adding more will slow your ships and increase your sig, you know... Blink


I never claimed that Huginns and Rapiers aren't used, and I would never do that.



It's your opening argument.

Quote:
but the Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them. Why, then, if they are so popular, do these specialized ships never get used?


Quote:
I merely used 6 mid slots as an example, and it was intended only for the Hyena. 5 would be fine. But 4 is too few. And 3 on the Vigil is way too few.


Not really. The Kitsune has five medslots, the Griffin has four. Why should Minmatar have Caldari slot layouts? One medslot fewer on the Minmatar counterparts seems entirely appropriate.
Hellanna
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-02-28 22:45:23 UTC
Are you kidding me :/

Minmitar EW bonus is the best in game for catching nano's which are pretty much the standard roaming gangs these days. They are also included in nano roaming gangs to stop tacklers...

In no way to they need a buff to their slots or EW strength. They are already the chosen race...
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-28 23:31:45 UTC
[quote=Reaver Glitterstim]Minmatar EWAR consists of target painters and stasis webifiers. Everyone uses them, but the Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them. Why, then, if they are so popular, do these specialized ships never get used?


Never used eh? Maybe not if you're a carebear. Oh wait... They're popular in incursions and wormhole use which is elite sauce PVE for carebears.

I think you your are sadly misinformed. The Loki, Rapier, and Huggin are the most dangerous eWar ships anyone can encounter. Because unlike the Falcon these Ewar ships can carry tank and do more than HOPE to jam something out.

- 1 for a poor idea
-1 for not researching before proposing a pointless change
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-02-28 23:37:42 UTC
The only ships I see these days that actually use their Ewar bonuses are Minmatar ships.

Any fleet fights will have a ton of Huginns and Lachesis. Massive web and point range are all the in thing at the moment so I would say the Ewar bonuses for Minmatar are working fine. Wouldn't say the same for damps though.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-02-29 00:47:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Posting in a "buff Minmatar" thread. Albeit one that claims that Huginns and Rapiers are never used. Anyway....

Six medslots for the Vigil? Come on, the race with the most medslots is supposed to be Caldari. And Minmatar ewar is supposed to be poorer because of Minmatar's advantages in mobility and sig. All those electronic jobbies are heavy and take a lot of power, adding more will slow your ships and increase your sig, you know... Blink


I never claimed that Huginns and Rapiers aren't used, and I would never do that.



It's your opening argument.

There I fixed it, because apparently everyone who viewed this completely missed my focus on the Vigil and Hyena specifically, and jumped to the conclusion that there was anything wrong with the Rapier or Huginn. If I thought there was anything wrong with those, I would most certainly have mentioned it here. By merely not mentioning it, I thought I made it clear that I wasn't knocking on them.

Gypsio III wrote:
Quote:
I merely used 6 mid slots as an example, and it was intended only for the Hyena. 5 would be fine. But 4 is too few. And 3 on the Vigil is way too few.


Not really. The Kitsune has five medslots, the Griffin has four. Why should Minmatar have Caldari slot layouts? One medslot fewer on the Minmatar counterparts seems entirely appropriate.


Why should they have a lot of mid slots? Because they're EWAR ships. Amarr EWAR ships get away with only a few because they use high slots for EWAR, not so with other races.

Let me ask you this: why should Minmatar have Gallente slot layouts? For that matter, why should Gallente have more midslots than Minmatar? The Maulus has 3 midslots, just like the Vigil, while the Griffin has 4. The Vigil could have either 3 or 4 and still "fit" between the Maulus and Griffin. But the Keres has 5 midslots while the Hyena has only 4. Now if that's not reason enough to turn one of the Hyena's lowslots into a midslot, I don't know what is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-29 00:50:41 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
The only ships I see these days that actually use their Ewar bonuses are Minmatar ships.

Any fleet fights will have a ton of Huginns and Lachesis. Massive web and point range are all the in thing at the moment so I would say the Ewar bonuses for Minmatar are working fine. Wouldn't say the same for damps though.


I never mentioned the Huginn or Lachesis. My entire discussion about underpowered EWAR ships was focused on the Vigil and Hyena. Unless you have evidence that either of these is both popular and effective, you have no statement to make here.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-02-29 00:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Isaiah Harms wrote:
[quote=Reaver Glitterstim]Minmatar EWAR consists of target painters and stasis webifiers. Everyone uses them, but the Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them. Why, then, if they are so popular, do these specialized ships never get used?


Never used eh? Maybe not if you're a carebear. Oh wait... They're popular in incursions and wormhole use which is elite sauce PVE for carebears.

I think you your are sadly misinformed. The Loki, Rapier, and Huggin are the most dangerous eWar ships anyone can encounter. Because unlike the Falcon these Ewar ships can carry tank and do more than HOPE to jam something out.

- 1 for a poor idea
-1 for not researching before proposing a pointless change


I didn't mention the Loki, Rapier, or Huginn, and for good reason. I have no gripe with those ships. I specifically focused on the Vigil and Hyena.

-1 to you for taking what I said out of context and basing your whole argument against mine on something I never said
-1 to you for accusing me of not researchign when you were too lazy to even read my post
-1 to you for fail use of the quote, not editing your post to fix it, and misspelling Huginn

How come I can find lots of intelligent feedback in General Discussion, but Assembly Hall is chock full of arrogant misquoters with over-inflated egos who have nothing better to do than point out stuff that either doesn't matter or was never stated in the first place?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2012-02-29 01:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them ... these specialized ships never get used?

FYI, those specialized ships include the Loki, Rapier, and Huginn. So, yes, you were referring to them, even if you didn't mean to. If you're specifically complaining about the Vigil and Hyena, then say so, don't complain about all Min EWAR ships never being used, because they are.

And you are getting intelligent feedback. Here in AH we're quite used to seeing tons of terribad ideas on a daily basis and are extremely experienced in poking holes in them and explaining why they make no sense at all. Don't misconstrue rebuttal with poor posting.

Don't make blanket statements about stuff 'never being used', because you'll always be wrong. It's one thing to say "ships x and y seem underused, and here's an idea that could increase their usefulness, what do you think?"; it's another to say "Min EWAR ships are never used and need a massive buff; I have seen the light and am called to share my wisdom with the forums". One gets you friendly responses, one gets you laughed at and little consideration.

And finally, the Min EWAR frigs are already balanced compared to their counterparts in other races, especially when it comes to slots. Look at the numbers: every single EWAR frig has 10 slots. Every T1 EWAR frig has 8 slots, except for the Vigil ... the Vigil has 9 instead. They're balanced just fine against each other. The whole line of T2 EWAR frigs needs a buff to make them cost-effective, but the Min ships are no worse off than any other race's EWAR frigs.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-02-29 02:45:02 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Minmatar EWAR ships specialize in them ... these specialized ships never get used?

FYI, those specialized ships include the Loki, Rapier, and Huginn. So, yes, you were referring to them, even if you didn't mean to. If you're specifically complaining about the Vigil and Hyena, then say so, don't complain about all Min EWAR ships never being used, because they are.

And you are getting intelligent feedback. Here in AH we're quite used to seeing tons of terribad ideas on a daily basis and are extremely experienced in poking holes in them and explaining why they make no sense at all. Don't misconstrue rebuttal with poor posting.

Don't make blanket statements about stuff 'never being used', because you'll always be wrong. It's one thing to say "ships x and y seem underused, and here's an idea that could increase their usefulness, what do you think?"; it's another to say "Min EWAR ships are never used and need a massive buff; I have seen the light and am called to share my wisdom with the forums". One gets you friendly responses, one gets you laughed at and little consideration.

And finally, the Min EWAR frigs are already balanced compared to their counterparts in other races, especially when it comes to slots. Look at the numbers: every single EWAR frig has 10 slots. Every T1 EWAR frig has 8 slots, except for the Vigil ... the Vigil has 9 instead. They're balanced just fine against each other. The whole line of T2 EWAR frigs needs a buff to make them cost-effective, but the Min ships are no worse off than any other race's EWAR frigs.


What you said is fairly intelligent, but the rest of the responses I got were not. So I made a small error in my speech. What everyone else did was jump immediately to that error and post that that thing I missed was wrong, completely ignoring the meat of my post for the most part.

How many slots a ship has total is not an effective measure of its balance. Many hulls find one type of slot has a dramatically different value than another type. EWAR frigates used in fleets for the most part couldn't care less about their high slots (except amarr). Likewise, low slots have negligible use for EWAR frigates and pretty much everything you can do with those low slots you can also do with mid slots. A more important part of balancing is checking to see that a particular hull gets as much utility out of its slot arrangement as other hulls do, or making sure that it doesn't get too much.

One of the main reasons Amarr ships get a lot of low slots and few mid slots is that they tend to prefer an armor-based tank. It's not because giving them mid slots would make them overpowered, rather it's more along the lines of "they probably will prefer a low slot over a mid slot". Most ships with a good slot arrangement would only be gimped by changing the arrangement; in most cases where changing the arrangement would make a dramatic improvement, the ship is gimped already and rarely used.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-02-29 04:07:22 UTC
My point is that the slot layout isn't the issue with either of those ships, that's not why they are currently rarely used. The reason you don't see them much is that they, along with ALL of the EWAR frigs line, suffer from a lack of survivability which makes their ISK/effectiveness less than other ships.

So the solution isn't to individually buff a certain ship or two, it's to fix the EWAR frigs as a whole, because the whole class is widely known to have survivability issues (Interceptor-like EHP on a ship that acts as a force multiplier makes them primaries, which isn't fun in a 20M hull).

And again, with regards to the Vigil, the reason it's used little isn't because it's worse, it's because the tiered ship system leaves it less useful than a combat ship 90% of the time; adding slots won't change anything.

Also, the reason that people jumped on that "small error" in your post is that it completely changed your post from saying that "the Vigil and Hyena seem underused" to "the Vigil, Hyena, Loki, Rapier, and Huginn are never used in combat", regardless of what you meant to say. And that is simply wrong. It may have been a small change of grammar, but it changed the context of the post dramatically. Not trying to rag on you or anything, just trying to point out why people jumped on you for it so that you can learn.

And people tend to simply reply to the easiest and most obvious thing first because there are lots of terribad posters in here who aren't going to listen to logic anyways, so there's little reason to write out a long and thought out post when they're going to just ignore it and continue insisting on their own idea regardless of how much they're proven wrong.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-02-29 05:14:39 UTC
I agree very much that the EWAR frigates need something for survivability or lower cost. But I'm pretty certain that the Minmatar EWAR frigates still wouldn't be used even after that happened. I've played around with the tech 1 EWAR frigs and I've found them to be fairly useful in certain PVE encounters. Granted, a battlecruiser usually did the trick as well, but in using these ships I found through experience that I just couldn't get any sort of comfortable fit at all on the Vigil. Barring all other shortcomings, it still needs another midslot just to even work, two to do anything really useful.

So what do you think about my other points?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-29 08:34:54 UTC
Quote:
One of the main reasons Amarr ships get a lot of low slots and few mid slots is that they tend to prefer an armor-based tank. It's not because giving them mid slots would make them overpowered, rather it's more along the lines of "they probably will prefer a low slot over a mid slot". Most ships with a good slot arrangement would only be gimped by changing the arrangement; in most cases where changing the arrangement would make a dramatic improvement, the ship is gimped already and rarely used.


Here is part of your answer.

Anmar prefer armor tanking, Caldari prefer Shield tanking and Ewar, so why would a should a minmatar ship have more mid slots?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-03-01 02:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Mike Whiite wrote:
Quote:
One of the main reasons Amarr ships get a lot of low slots and few mid slots is that they tend to prefer an armor-based tank. It's not because giving them mid slots would make them overpowered, rather it's more along the lines of "they probably will prefer a low slot over a mid slot". Most ships with a good slot arrangement would only be gimped by changing the arrangement; in most cases where changing the arrangement would make a dramatic improvement, the ship is gimped already and rarely used.


Here is part of your answer.

Anmar prefer armor tanking, Caldari prefer Shield tanking and Ewar, so why would a should a minmatar ship have more mid slots?


What Amarr and Caldari prefer has no bearing on what slot arrangement a Minmatar ship should have. Also, while the ship's faction matters when choosing the best slot arrangement, a lot more hinges on what the ship is used for. Electronic warfare ships generally have a lot of mid slots because EWAR modules are mostly mid slot modules and are never low slot modules (except for the modules that boost the power of the mid slot EWAR modules). As far as I am aware, there are zero electronic warfare ships that have more low slots than mid slots; and the only EWAR ships with the same number of mids as lows are the Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Crucifier, and Vigil. Three of them are Amarr ships; while they would want mid slots for tracking disruptors, they are also likely to use energy vampires or neutralizers. The Arbitrator and Crucifier do not have energy transfer module bonuses, but the Arbitrator has a slot setup suggesting that it might be fit with those. The Crucifier looks like it could use another high slot, but that's a topic for another discussion. Also, all three of those Amarr ships have more armor HP than they have shield HP. The Vigil, however, is almost entirely dependent on its mid slots. It gets a skill bonus to target painting, and due to its small signature radius, high speed and agility, and low hit points in comparison to the other T1 EWAR frigates, it can be assumed that it was intended to use speed to survive. With a propulsion module, it only has 2 mid slots remaining. It can fit 2 target painters, but that leaves no room for stasis webifiers which stack extremely well with target painters. Alternatively it can use 1 painter and 1 webifier, in which case it does not stack multiple effects from the same type of module at all and only one of its modules actually gets a ship skill bonus. Finally, there are no low slot modules that will boost the effectiveness or range of a target painter or stasis webifier. So with this setup, a Vigil on the field is about as effective as a stasis webifier and target painter fit onto any other ship (say a drake) that had a loose enough fit to put them on, meaning it's using up a whole pilot to fill a redundant fleet position.

Do you see now why it makes sense for the Minmatar EWAR frigate to have more mid slots than other slots?
To recap:
  • Its target painting bonus requires mid slots to be used
  • It and the Hyena have the Amarr EWAR frigate/Electronic Attack Ship slot setup, while the Gallente slot setup is inbetween Amarr and Caldari
  • Minmatar EWAR is both target painters AND stasis webifiers, and relies strongly on their cumulative effects when used together; either one alone is less crippling than all other major EWAR modules
    • [*] EWAR frigates almost invariably will be fitted with a propulsion module if they have any desire to stay alive through an engagement

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2012-03-01 10:33:46 UTC
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    Mike Whiite wrote:
    Quote:
    One of the main reasons Amarr ships get a lot of low slots and few mid slots is that they tend to prefer an armor-based tank. It's not because giving them mid slots would make them overpowered, rather it's more along the lines of "they probably will prefer a low slot over a mid slot". Most ships with a good slot arrangement would only be gimped by changing the arrangement; in most cases where changing the arrangement would make a dramatic improvement, the ship is gimped already and rarely used.


    Here is part of your answer.

    Anmar prefer armor tanking, Caldari prefer Shield tanking and Ewar, so why would a should a minmatar ship have more mid slots?


    What Amarr and Caldari prefer has no bearing on what slot arrangement a Minmatar ship should have...........
  • Minmatar EWAR is both target painters AND stasis webifiers, and relies strongly on their cumulative effects when used together; either one alone is less crippling than all other major EWAR modules
  • EWAR frigates almost invariably will be fitted with a propulsion module if they have any desire to stay alive through an engagement


    • Still don't see it.

    you don't need a propulsion mod on a hyena you want a propulsion mod on a Hyena.

    It's signature radius as far out the smallest of all these ships even without the bonus its already the fastest, being targeted by two webs doesn't help attacking it either.

    The EWAR Frigates are support vessles (the kitsune is the only one that is somewhat capable of fighting out a one on one) the fact you can use both Webs and Painters doesn't mean you have to, depends on the fleet you're in.

    Also the fact that you can stay at range doesn't mean you should.

    I can understand your will to make non DPS pumpers more intresting though leave the midslots allone and/or come with a solution for the entire class of ships.
    Rel'k Bloodlor
    Federation Front Line Report
    Federation Front Line
    #19 - 2012-03-01 11:43:15 UTC
    Stasis webbers and target painters give a damage boost to your whole side of a fight. Having 3( 4 for your T2) mids 1 for a MWD one for a painter and one for a webber gives your whole gang at least 5% damage boost. This type of Ewar is REALLY Minmatar as it just helps you kill the primary even faster, and helps Projectiles as they do most of there work in fall off.

    The problem is not that you don't get enough Ewar its the platform is poor at delivering said Ewar. All it would take to make them good is the ability to survive long enough to make the boost to your gang count. Even if you give the Hyena 5 mids and enough CPU to fit it all with webbers and painters it still go's up in smoke the moment some one locks you.

    I think losing a bonus, doubling the webber range bonus and doubling the base lock range would do far more for the hull than even +3 mids ever could.

    I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2012-03-02 01:51:18 UTC
    Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
    The problem is not that you don't get enough Ewar its the platform is poor at delivering said Ewar. All it would take to make them good is the ability to survive long enough to make the boost to your gang count. Even if you give the Hyena 5 mids and enough CPU to fit it all with webbers and painters it still go's up in smoke the moment some one locks you.


    Yes, EWAR frigates need some sort of survival buff, however I didn't bother to address that in this post because it is a complicated issue I don't even have a good answer for. But the point I was making was not that 3 mid slots is not enough to do good EWAR, rather that it is not enough to make the ship have a stronger EWAR effect than a fully fit non-EWAR battlecruiser. If giving it more mid slots makes it too powerful, then nerf the target painters and/or stasis webifiers.

    Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
    I think losing a bonus, doubling the webber range bonus and doubling the base lock range would do far more for the hull than even +3 mids ever could.


    The bonuses you mention would have a much weaker effect without those mid slots being added. No matter how much you boost the lock range and web range, you aren't fixing the heart of the issue which is that its EWAR is only marginally stronger than a drake with a target painter and webifier. The drake, however, contributes far more to the fleet than just its EWAR. It also has FAR greater survivability in almost all situations, and for only slightly more cost than the Hyena.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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