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Crucible Big Time POS NERF
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#21 - 2012-02-28 21:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Velicitia wrote:


you might wanna re-check where you can get the good ice. for example, check out Osvetur sometime.


My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Velicitia
XS Tech
#22 - 2012-02-28 21:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


you might wanna re-check where you can get the good ice. for example, check out Osvetur sometime.


My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY.



depends really ... Osvetur isn't exactly a hub of scum and villainy ... but yeah, it'll take more work than hisec (terribad yield) or nullsec (deep blue space)

edit -- forgot to mention though, that the "safety" in nullsec is a bonus of "days/weeks of war trying to take the system/constellation from someone else"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#23 - 2012-02-28 21:17:57 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY.


depends really ... Osvetur isn't exactly a hub of scum and villainy ... but yeah, it'll take more work than hisec (terribad yield) or nullsec (deep blue space)


Yup. Also, looking at the numbers, if one does the D-scan and run scenario in Low Sec for about an hour, that would yield quite a bit of L-Ozone.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#24 - 2012-02-28 21:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO.



Of course the Nullbears (Lowbear-ing is impossible I assume) have it all sealed up as usual with access to Glare Crust and Dark Glitter. Evil

Ice Batch Type Isotopes Liquid Ozone Heavy Water Strontium
White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 300 25 50 1
Pristine White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 350 40 75 1
Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 300 25 50 1
Smooth Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 350 40 75 1
Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 300 25 50 1
Thick Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 350 40 75 1
Clear Icicle 1 Helium 300 25 50 1
Enriched Clear Icicle 1 Helium 350 40 75 1
Glare Crust 1 - 0 500 1,000 25
Dark Glitter 1 - 0 1,000 500 50
Gelidus 1 - 0 500 250 75
Krystallos 1 - 0 250 100 100


Yeah I used to mine dark glitter when I lived in null. but high sec POSes are pretty much exclusively fueled with high sec ice. you need to mine twice as much to get enough liquid ozone and the surplus of heavy water you have is useless as there is little demand for it.
There are also far more jump freighter pilots buying liquid ozone in high sec than there are Roqual pilots buying heavy water.

It should be the other way around, twice as much LO as HW.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#25 - 2012-02-28 21:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


It should be the other way around, twice as much LO as HW.


Yeah. Made a promise to put back some LO for when the real Bottleneck hits on the Markets......but it's just impossible to save any at all as it gets used, of course.

It's a case of make money now off Fuel Blocks....or possibly make even more money later with LO. Choices, choices....

Maybe buy a Billion in LO from the Rens Market and.........hope.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#26 - 2012-02-28 23:00:51 UTC
TravisWB wrote:
Prior to Crucible it was possible to run a "hobby" small tower with very little time and effort required to produce all the fuel items needed to run a small moon miner in lowsec.

Even better, a secure hisec small tower could run just the tower and a lab or 2 for almost nothing in the way of fuel and a single person could keep such towers running with little effort.

Well, now that is all different and even a small tower with a single module is running at full load as though it was maxed out with modules.

And prior to Crucible it sure as heck wasn't costing me 27 mil isk a week to run a single small tower either.

Result? All my towers are down, I stopped doing PI and Ice mining on a corporate level and am more or less abandoning INDUSTRY as a viable part of EVE gameplay.

I have also noticed a great many more offline towers than ever before so I'm guessing I am not alone in this.



I ran this through Google translate and this was the result:

I used to run a small tower alone

WAAAAAAAAAAH

now I don't

Oh and I flew to another wrong moon by mistake and there was an offline POS so obviously everyone else has ragequit POS management too
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2012-02-28 23:33:48 UTC
As someone who solo-runs a number of large tower POSes, along with smalls and mediums when I am setting up or squatting, I am very happy with the post-crucible situation. I was also satisfied with the amount of implementation warning I was given.

I still have to haul some fairly large volumes to-and-fro, to get the PI-based and ice-based fuel block components in the same place, but the simplification (dumbing down perhaps) of the actual tower fueling (IMO) far outweighs the increased complexity of having to manage a number of fuel-block production lines.

I likes what crucible did for my POSes, and can only ask for some more POS-luvvin from CCP ... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#28 - 2012-02-29 11:59:53 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space.


Yup, for me it's all about THIS.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#29 - 2012-02-29 12:10:29 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space.


Yup, for me it's all about THIS.



Me too. Big smile

Or the ability to steal them. All about the profit, yo.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Alyssa SaintCroix
Leihkasse Stammheim
#30 - 2012-02-29 12:28:15 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space.


Yup, for me it's all about THIS.



Me too. Big smile

Or the ability to steal them. All about the profit, yo.


Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, have mini events where local pirate factions take over the tower, apply a bounty to the tower and rats hanging around (based on security status perhaps) and then allow people to salvage the tower wreck for the parts required to make one -- the larger the tower the more parts with faction towers giving the best.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#31 - 2012-02-29 12:39:47 UTC
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:


Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................


WAY too nice on these guys.

Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#32 - 2012-02-29 12:51:04 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:


Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................


WAY too nice on these guys.

Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................


I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Velicitia
XS Tech
#33 - 2012-02-29 13:46:37 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:


Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................


WAY too nice on these guys.

Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................


I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two.


as long as the set of stuff includes "other players can steal the tower and/or modules without having to resort to wardecs/diplomacy" (i.e. they can steal it)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#34 - 2012-02-29 14:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Velicitia wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:


Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................


WAY too nice on these guys.

Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................


I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two.


as long as the set of stuff includes "other players can steal the tower and/or modules without having to resort to wardecs/diplomacy" (i.e. they can steal it)



I'm WANTING the 5 True Sansha Larges sitting here idle, offline, in my home system...........

There are at least 15 others idle. More than are onlined in system tbh. Guess who owns most idles ? That's right. Goons.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-02-29 17:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jastra
Surely an abandoned tower with no shields ought to be salvageable with a salvager. At least this would make it a viable in game profession as well as clearing the VAST number of moons with dead POS's on them (Juujatsi or something, I checked and about 30% of the large number of moons had an unshielded POS- so good iskies for a salvager!!
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#36 - 2012-02-29 18:59:08 UTC
Jastra wrote:
Surely an abandoned tower with no shields ought to be salvageable with a salvager. At least this would make it a viable in game profession as well as clearing the VAST number of moons with dead POS's on them (Juujatsi or something, I checked and about 30% of the large number of moons had an unshielded POS- so good iskies for a salvager!!


That Tower must be a wreck first. Good Luck.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#37 - 2012-02-29 19:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Linda Shadowborn wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use?

Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used?


yupp


Lies.

It used to cost 50m a month for a small, 100m for a medium and around 200m for a large.

Pos prices increased with PI being added to the game by about 20-30%.

The latest POS fuel blocks increased it again by astronomical figures.

I still have mails from Lady Patricia a pos fuel deliverer (really great btw) where my large empire POS was costing me 260m delivered - after PI was added.

Price now: 460m - market prices.

Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.

How can anyone say it went down?

.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#38 - 2012-02-29 19:08:00 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Linda Shadowborn wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use?

Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used?


yupp


Lies.

It used to cost 50m a month for a small, 100m for a medium and around 200m for a large.

Pos prices increased with PI being added to the game by about 20-30%.

The latest POS fuel blocks increased it again by astronomical figures.

I still have mails from Lady Patricia a pos fuel deliverer (really great btw) where my large empire POS was costing me 260m delivered - after PI was added.

Price now: 460m - market prices.

Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.

How can anyone say it went down?


and when were these mails from?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Laura Marhsal
Dark Echo Club
#39 - 2012-02-29 22:05:06 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
Can we get pos's that haven't been fueled for more than 30 days to go boom like the jet cans?

Pretty please?



even better anyone can take them down and sell them!
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#40 - 2012-03-01 05:35:01 UTC
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:

Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, have mini events where local pirate factions take over the tower, apply a bounty to the tower and rats hanging around (based on security status perhaps) and then allow people to salvage the tower wreck for the parts required to make one -- the larger the tower the more parts with faction towers giving the best.



The problem with that is if you bring people into your corp, who don't have the faction standings to keep your corp standings high - you have to kick all the slackers out in order to re-anchor. Which, in hi-sec, means that a lot of corps go ahead and anchor spare towers at other moons - but leave them offline until needed.

Numbers... lots of numbers...

Costs for towers (back on July 11 2011) were:

112M small, 183M medium, 327M large - The small towers were about 1/3 the cost per month of a large tower due to the way the old fuel math worked out. Medium towers were about 55-60% of a large tower per month. Note these numbers assume you used your full load of PG/CPU.

LOz was 360 ISK/u, HW was 22.80 ISK/u back then. Isotopes for that quote were 560 ISK/u. (The rest you can figure out by looking at the market graphs.)

October 2011 costs (start of the Gallente ice interdiction), millions of ISK per 30 days, assuming full PG/CPU usage:

Amarr: 151 / 231 / 392
Caldari: 158 / 245 / 421
Gallente: 190 / 310 / 549
Minmatar: 174 / 276 / 482

Note that under the old HW costs (20-30 ISK/u), HW costs were only 2-3M ISK per month for a large tower, and LOz costs were about 20-24M ISK. So even if you weren't using your full load of LOz, you were only saving 15-20M/mo. If you weren't using all of your HW per month, you were saving a trivial amount.

Feb 29 2012 fuel prices (assuming that you purchase the inputs, and manufacture the blocks yourself):

Amarr: 88 / 175 / 348 - 12072 ISK/u
Caldari: 104 / 205 / 408 - 14164 ISK/u
Gallente: 98 / 193 / 385 - 13353 ISK/u
Minmatar: 101 / 200 / 398 - 13808 ISK/u

Under the old fueling system (assuming full PG/CPU usage):

Amarr: 128 / 209 / 373
Caldari: 145 / 243 / 440
Gallente: 139 / 230 / 414
Minmatar: 142 / 237 / 429

Large towers got somewhat cheaper or broke even depending on LOz usage, medium towers got cheaper, small towers got a *lot* cheaper. Now a small tower is almost exactly 1/4 the cost per month of a large tower, and a medium is almost exactly 1/2 the cost of a large.
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