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Tier 3 BC's left us high and dry.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-03-06 07:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Zyress wrote:
Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a launcher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5.



Turrets are the same way

This is the pre-requisite list for a long range T2 arty

gunnery V
Sharpshooter V
small projectile V
Small are artillery spec IV
Medium projectile V
Medium artillery spec IV
Large projectile V
Spec IV (which is where a lot of people give up lol)

Oh you want auto-cannons on your tempest too? Assuming that you already trained the above...
Motion Prediction V
Small spec IV
Meduim spec IV
Large spec IV

all of those specs to four take about 4 days a pop mapped with +4s, motion prediction and sharpshooter 6 days...each.

Not to mention the joy of the rank 5 Large weapon skill....x3 if you are trying to cover all races.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#102 - 2012-03-06 13:56:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This thread could use some blue light.

We have to admit creating the Naga was possibly one of the most challenging ship balancing task we had to tackle so far. Not only because finding a proper role for it without overlapping with the Talos too much, while still remaining effective was crazy difficult, but mainly as we knew that no matter which kind of direction we picked it would still generate a heated debate among the community.

The core problem here lies with the Caldari combat philosophy, or at least how it is externally perceived. Some believe Caldari to be missile based, other hybrids based. And to be honest, that is quite a logical assuption to do so, as most of the Caldari hybrid hulls are quite underused (or were before Crucible), and the most popular ships remain missile based (Caracal, Drake, Raven).

As designers, we can tell Caldari have three main points going for them as a race and that is, missile, hybrids and ECM. To be an all-rounded Caldari pilot, one must realize all aspects have to be considered and learned, just like, for example, a pilot has to consider training for hybrids, drones and dampening to master most of the Gallente tech 1 ships.

However, we are players as well, and we can freely admit only having one side of the coin for a new expansion is indeed frustrating. Favor the Naga as hybrid, as missile pilots feel shafted. Make it missile based and hybrid users will hunt your family down with torches and pitchforks. It is, in essence, a no win situation, no matter how much you try to please the player base.

The first iteration of the Naga attempted to please all interested parties by having both missile and hybrid bonues, but as the feedback quickly shown, it was quite a failure, as it was not achieving any specific role and lacked a purpose.

So, in the end, we had to go for the option that made the most logical sense. Tier 3 battlecruisers are supposed to be mobile, heavy damage support for fleets and hybrids were the most appealing to reach such goal. Torpedoes are too short range based for a hull that frail, while cruise missiles have their own issues for long range combat.

It is not to say cruise missiles are fine and that we don't want to tweak them, but the Naga is, and will remain a hybrid ship as it best fits its role. The issue with missiles in general needs to be and will addressed, but that is a separate discussion altogether, that we will happily discuss with the player base when we come down to it.


Crap, made a wall of text P Well, hope that helps a bit no matter what.


Also: Naga is actually a far better ship for sniper role than Talos or Megathron, it's actually almost perfect for the job while being less impressive with blasters where Talos is, the well deserved title of, undisputed king.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-03-06 18:45:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zyress wrote:

I imagine when you say you have 18 mil in turret skils you are crosstrained in every turret type. There are 18 Turret types and 7 Launcher types in sub capital ships, yeah you got 7 more mil in Turret skills but you have 11 more weapon systems. Compare the skill points you need for 7 turret systems to 7 launcher systems and you won't find that big a difference and its quite possible that the turrets are less skill intensive. Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a launcher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5.


Fact: I can use all missiles.
Fact: I can use all turrets.
Fact: I have significantly more SP invested in gunnery than missiles
Fact: It is easier to train a specific T2 missile platform than a specific T2 gun platform.
Fact: You don't have to train the supports to 5 in order to use T2 large missile platforms
Fact: Cross training all missile ships in the game requires less SP than cross training all gun ships.
Fact: Missile performance plateaus earlier and has less total SP that can realistically be dedicated to it.
Fact: Training one full turret tree is approximately equivalent to training the entire missile tree.

-Liang

Here’s some more fun facts for you.

Standard Missile Optimization versus Artillery Optimization

Base Skill
Missile Launcher Op(1x) Gunnery(1x)

Support Skills
Missile Bombarment(2x) Rapid Firing(2x)
Guided Missile Precision(5x) Motion Prediction(2x)
Missile Projection(4x) SharpShooter(2x)
Rapid Launch(2x) Surgical Strike(4x)
Target Navigation Prediction(2x) Trajectory Analysis(5x)
Warhead Upgrades(5x)

Fitting Skills
Weapon Upgrades(2x) Weapon Upgrades(2x)
Advanced Weapon Upgrades(6x) Advanced Weapon Upgrades(6x)

Weapon System Skills
Standard Missile Launcher(2x) Small Projectile Turret(1x)
Standard Missile Specialization(3x) Small Artillery Specialization(3x)

For Small Rail Spec or small Beam Spec you would add Controlled Bursts(2x) to the Gunnery support skills but that doesn’t really come close to matching the extra 5x skill that the Standard Missiles can use.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-03-06 18:50:24 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129

Bothered about teir 3 QQ? Read that and come back when you realise your sp in those skills will only now apply to one races BC.... (or two badly)

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-03-06 19:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Reads like a round-about nerf to battlecruiser proliferation, at least for lower sp players. I'm not sure why they would inflate the aggregate sp required to be fully subcap proficient, but if tiericide leaves us with more viable ships then I could really care less about the former issue. Of course if you a dedicated bc pilot with minimal ship skills and all medium weapon systems trained this could set you back a few months, not sure how common that is.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#106 - 2012-03-07 04:36:00 UTC
This has turned into one long thread all because ccp showed everyone love except gurista specced pilots. Shocked
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#107 - 2012-03-07 20:45:10 UTC
WolfeReign wrote:
Also this supposed drake "nerf" is not really a nerf. added range just makes Hams alot more viable in pvp and alot of times a higher damage output is more beneficial then a little more tank


Ever try and hit a moving ship with Hams, thats not webbed?

Or rockets for that matter? They suck.... Doesnt matter if the dps is higher, and its not by much, if you cant apply it to your target..
Which is why Heavies are used 90% of the time....
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#108 - 2012-03-07 20:47:36 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Thelron wrote:


Torps are a sloppy mess that require so much tackle and painting on a target that they're best used for light shows and maybe the occasional ambush.


Myth bolded.

Sure, if you're firing torps against Gurista frigates, then you may find them lacking.

Torps are a battleship weapon, designed to be used against other battleships. The only additional tackle that they require is a painter - web support is not necessary against almost all BS - and even the painter is unnecessary against six of the twelve BS.



The cow pasture is calling...They want their bullshit back....
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-03-07 20:50:10 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Did anyone actually try the torp Naga when it was on SISSI? It sucked hard. The tier 3 BC only have about 30k EHP. That's enough to roll up, shoot a few times, and then GTFO. The rail Naga was the best choice.
It could have been worked on.

There is nothing the naga can do that the Talos cant do better... Sniping? Talos gets better tracking and dps. Not quite the range.

There is no reason to fly a naga when the Talos is better in every way....
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#110 - 2012-03-07 20:52:49 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
I think people are still missing the two main points of what I started this thread:

1. BC balance is way off now when comparing the weapons skills aspect. (( was already bad for drones ))

2. Missle/drone combo is already the rarest used. Mainly due to it being so niche.
It's sad that hybrids got buff, All guns got tier 3 bc's and the drake gets a small nerf all in the same time period. (( the timing was awful ))

I have no issue with all 4 tier 3 BC's being guns. (( it just would have been nice to see them released with faction BC's at the same time ))

I'm also a bit WTF that ccp changed the drake before dealing with the hurricane.



The naga should have been a missile boat. For some reason people on here think that its a great ship, but fail to realize, the Talos can do the same and better...

The naga had a chance to be a good missile ship, but ccp taking the easy route, made it a gun boat instead.. Its take far less time to learn to fly a Talos than it does to learn Torps or cruise to lvl 5.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-03-08 01:22:08 UTC
Randomgenerated Alt wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Did anyone actually try the torp Naga when it was on SISSI? It sucked hard. The tier 3 BC only have about 30k EHP. That's enough to roll up, shoot a few times, and then GTFO. The rail Naga was the best choice.
It could have been worked on.

There is nothing the naga can do that the Talos cant do better... Sniping? Talos gets better tracking and dps. Not quite the range.

There is no reason to fly a naga when the Talos is better in every way....



Naga to Talos? More range, more tank.
Sekan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2012-03-31 01:30:51 UTC
Just want to say the new tier 3 BC look and feel is very badly designed....get a better designer Shocked
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#113 - 2012-03-31 14:24:51 UTC
How about not bothering with threads like these until AFTER Inferno and the tiercide?

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
OfBalance
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-03-31 17:42:25 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
How about not bothering with threads like these until AFTER Inferno and the tiercide?


In fairness to the OP, whom I disagree with; iirc this thread pre-dates the tiericide announcement.

The necropost however, is quite fresh.