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Tier 3 BC's left us high and dry.

First post
Author
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#1 - 2012-02-26 20:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
CCP must just love missle/drone pilots. Question

They gave us a nice new BC to play with. Ugh
What no tier 3 drone ship. Damn. Cry
No missle tier 3 ship either? WTF? Shocked

Atleast we still have the drake. Big smile
Your nerfing the drake too? Evil

Thanks for the love guys. Really. I'm so sick of hearing how missles and drones are over powered. Roll

Well atleast the new BC's are good at killing all those mission runners. Attention
I mean how often to you see missle or drone ships running mission? Oh, yeah all the time. Idea
Alara IonStorm
#2 - 2012-02-26 20:24:53 UTC
The new Drake stats are easily in line with the other Tier 2 Battlecruisers. Honestly the changes do not bother me since I can still pull off 80k + Tank with a warp Disruptor, 2 BCU's and Heavy Missiles. I will continue to fly my Drake after them and it will still be a damn well dangerous ship.

I am also pleased that in the same report that first mentioned the Drake Nerf also stated that the Caracal, Cerberous, Kestral and Nighthawk are on the receiving end of Buffs. As for the Naga as a Missile lover I was saddened by its new role but I can not argue with its results. I was skeptical at first but it seems to have come into its own.
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#3 - 2012-02-26 20:27:30 UTC
The Naga did come into its own, and can fit one helluva tank for a T3 BC and sacrifice nothing for it.

I do wish it was still the torpedo boat. I would've trained torps and Caldari cruisers just for the ability to lob 8 bonused torps at somebody. Twisted
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#4 - 2012-02-26 20:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
As nice as the naga is those who specialized in missles and did not chase anything in the way of guns have a lot of training to do just to get it on par with other ships they already fly.

Buffs to cruisers is not so good either as the blackbird is the only one worth using of the group and it's for ecm reasons.

I wouldn't hate the drake nerf so much if they would have just reduced a few stats instead of changing the bonuses and in turn the role in plays. Gila > Drake is now offical.
Wacktopia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-26 22:45:19 UTC
Tr 3 are gun ships. It makes sense because snipers work best a gun ships.

Drake needed a tweak, it got one, its still good.

Honestly, maybe missiles and drones affect the server too much. I dunno.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

OfBalance
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-26 23:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Wacktopia wrote:
Tr 3 are gun ships. It makes sense because snipers work best a gun ships.


Pretty much this.

I assume CCP feels missile users have been adequately compensated by stealth bombers and the various spear-chucking ships strewn across the races: Khanid ships, Gurista ships, Lach, Huginn, Typhoon, and to a lesser extent all those minmatar ships that traditionally fit neuts in their utility slots, but could fit launchers.

Not that I find this to be an incredible solace myself, but having to make an educated guess that's what I assume they'd say. Regardless of the reasoning though, I don't think any torp, cruise, or capital launcher pilot would delight in any new hulls being throw there way as it stands. Outside of the "ooh shiny and new," value the weapons themselves are anywhere from "of narrow use," to "completely broken," in terms of effectiveness.

Personally, I think priority one for launchers is to have the larger variety work on equal sized targets with t2 ammo. Rage torps and cruise missiles should not be useful only in bashing structures. XL torps should not be speed tanked by a capital ship moving at the speed of continental drift.

Ed: As far as drones go, I think they're in a similar situation (ie. lots of ships with extensive drone bays, a few off-racial and faction ships with a drone bonus, and their own ship class in carriers) but rather than being ineffective, not that drones don't have their drawbacks, are not provided more hulls for different reasons. I could go on about that, but I think one look at how popular the ishtar is, why that is, and where it's drawbacks lie should give you an idea.
Liam Mirren
#7 - 2012-02-27 00:47:11 UTC
If you really think the Naga sucks then you have no clue what you're talking about. Really, no clue whatsoever. And yeah, they're turret ships just like the T1 destroyers.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#8 - 2012-02-27 00:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
OfBalance wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
Tr 3 are gun ships. It makes sense because snipers work best a gun ships.


Pretty much this.

I assume CCP feels missile users have been adequately compensated by stealth bombers and the various spear-chucking ships strewn across the races: Khanid ships, Gurista ships, Lach, Huginn, Typhoon, and to a lesser extent all those minmatar ships that traditionally fit neuts in their utility slots, but could fit launchers.

Not that I find this to be an incredible solace myself, but having to make an educated guess that's what I assume they'd say. Regardless of the reasoning though, I don't think any torp, cruise, or capital launcher pilot would delight in any new hulls being throw there way as it stands. Outside of the "ooh shiny and new," value the weapons themselves are anywhere from "of narrow use," to "completely broken," in terms of effectiveness.

Personally, I think priority one for launchers is to have the larger variety work on equal sized targets with t2 ammo. Rage torps and cruise missiles should not be useful only in bashing structures. XL torps should not be speed tanked by a capital ship moving at the speed of continental drift.

Ed: As far as drones go, I think they're in a similar situation (ie. lots of ships with extensive drone bays, a few off-racial and faction ships with a drone bonus, and their own ship class in carriers) but rather than being ineffective, not that drones don't have their drawbacks, are not provided more hulls for different reasons. I could go on about that, but I think one look at how popular the ishtar is, why that is, and where it's drawbacks lie should give you an idea.


The things you are talking about with this make sense for those who use missles as a secondary weapon system.
Doesn't help so much for those who are stacked in missle skills and little to no gun skills.
It would be nice if a mod was made to help explosion radius even if the increase is very minimal.

On the drone aspect the popularity of the ishtar seem to be more due to lack of a good bc that use drones.
Yes the Myrm is ok but when it's stuck with 75 m3 compared to 125m3 of a ishtar or gila it's pretty sad to those who are drone heavy in thier training.
Even a BC without guns that can use 5 heavy drones would be nice maybe even 6 drones Lol. Could still have high slots but use for neuts/nos/drone upgrades things of that nature. Six sentries with two sentry rigs wouldn't have made for a nice sniper boat.

For those of us who are gurista specialist and focused on both missles and drones it's been a very sad few months.
From the forums I've read people already seemed to be against drones when it comes to the larger ships for pvp purposes. ((cheap neut domi is the only decent option without dropping down to cruiser size))
Those who are gurista heavy would rather fly the gila over the myrm and now with the drake nerf the gila is better then any bc we could chose from. Seems to be a huge case of no love in the BC class of ships for us.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-27 00:54:55 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
If you really think the Naga sucks then you have no clue what you're talking about. Really, no clue whatsoever. And yeah, they're turret ships just like the T1 destroyers.


The naga doesn't suck, but you've really missed the boat if you think that was the conversation at hand.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#10 - 2012-02-27 00:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
Liam Mirren wrote:
If you really think the Naga sucks then you have no clue what you're talking about. Really, no clue whatsoever. And yeah, they're turret ships just like the T1 destroyers.


Your missing the point of the thread.
I think the Naga is great it's just too bad that you need guns skills to make it great.
I have no issue with the caldari line up as a whole.
Only that those who are not trained in guns are getting the shaft.
Liam Mirren
#11 - 2012-02-27 01:06:02 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Only that those who are not trained in guns are getting the shaft.


And before that anyone having trained hybrids instead of missiles was getting the shaft as the Drake is far more useful than the Ferox and the raven > Rokh. For once, just once, it's the other time round and now you're going to start a whine thread about it?

The tier 3 BCs have fairly niche roles, none of these roles work well with slow drones or missiles.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#12 - 2012-02-27 01:33:48 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Only that those who are not trained in guns are getting the shaft.


And before that anyone having trained hybrids instead of missiles was getting the shaft as the Drake is far more useful than the Ferox and the raven > Rokh. For once, just once, it's the other time round and now you're going to start a whine thread about it?

The tier 3 BCs have fairly niche roles, none of these roles work well with slow drones or missiles.


If you have hybrid skills then you have the entire gallente line up to chose from.
Plus you use the same secondary gun skills as all other guns.
Missles have not of this.
Again this is not caldari ship specific.
We are talking apples here and your talking oranges.
Liam Mirren
#13 - 2012-02-27 01:54:20 UTC
Npt at all. your "but you have gallente" doesn't make sense because you stated you'd like the Talos to be drone based. Besides, why should one have to fly gallente if you wanted a hybrid ship. Also, For gallente it's the same thing; generally the droneboats out perform the turret ships and this once it's a GOOD gallente turret ship.

Why didn't you ask for a missile Oracle, some of their ships are missile based? You can ofcourse try your hardest to sound fair, reasoned and logical but all we're really hearing is "bawww, i didn't train Hybrids".

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Alexa Coates
Coalition Of Misfits
#14 - 2012-02-27 01:59:52 UTC
OH LOOK THIS THREAD AGAIN. IT'S ONLY BEEN DISCUSSED 498765293476563947596 TIMES WHY WE DONT HAVE THOSE SHIPS.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.

Nedes Betternaem
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-02-27 02:13:41 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
OH LOOK THIS THREAD AGAIN. IT'S ONLY BEEN DISCUSSED 498765293476563947596 TIMES WHY WE DONT HAVE THOSE SHIPS.

This is by far the most constructive and intelligent post I have seen all day.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-27 02:22:37 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Npt at all. your "but you have gallente" doesn't make sense because you stated you'd like the Talos to be drone based. Besides, why should one have to fly gallente if you wanted a hybrid ship. Also, For gallente it's the same thing; generally the droneboats out perform the turret ships and this once it's a GOOD gallente turret ship.

Why didn't you ask for a missile Oracle, some of their ships are missile based? You can ofcourse try your hardest to sound fair, reasoned and logical but all we're really hearing is "bawww, i didn't train Hybrids".


:woosh:
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#17 - 2012-02-27 03:10:28 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Npt at all. your "but you have gallente" doesn't make sense because you stated you'd like the Talos to be drone based. Besides, why should one have to fly gallente if you wanted a hybrid ship. Also, For gallente it's the same thing; generally the droneboats out perform the turret ships and this once it's a GOOD gallente turret ship.

Why didn't you ask for a missile Oracle, some of their ships are missile based? You can ofcourse try your hardest to sound fair, reasoned and logical but all we're really hearing is "bawww, i didn't train Hybrids".



Ok I'll have to spell it out for the 4 month old player:

Lots of us have ships of all 4 races open to us. Many pilots are 50mil sp and higher now.

We use the same support skills to fly all races. (( core skills )) Our only cross training is the armor/shield aspect.

Those who train guns to the point of being good have the support skills for the other 2 types of guns trained up.

If you training 2 weapon types odds are it's gun/missles or gun/drones. This is the vast majority of eve players. (( rough estimate is over well over 90% ))

The other less then 10% of us train missles/drones and not guns. Having the option to through some guns on a ship for us is the differance between max secondary skills with great t2 weapons or sad t1's with bad secondary skills since the sp has been used in drones/missles.

The last three months has been here gun users have a buff to hybrids, here gun users here are 4 new bc's, and it's now been followed by hey missle users have a nerf. For those who are guns and use missles and drones for support or are well mixed between guns and missles not an issue. For the last small percentage of eve players it's been a big **** off from ccp. Merry christmas and happy new year.

Guns are already the prefered weapon and many of the forums on this site talk about how missles are not what they use to be and drones don't even get looked at. I'm only pointing out that something that was already unblanced in favor of guns has become even more unbalanced.

I'm not too personally effected due to having near 70mil sp but it's pretty sad that they are pushing new players away from some cool aspects of the game even more then before.

The simple part of this is we have ships that can do any mix of drone/guns, guns/missles and missle/drones in every class of high sec combat ship except destroyers and battle cruisers. Destroyers are all guns with no love for missles or drones but who cares they are not hard to train for with guns and only have one modle. BC's on the other hand have three tiers now where drone/missle users have to choose either missle heavy or drone heavy and since the drone heavy is also a gun heavy ship it leaves only the drake which is now getting a nerf.
Soporo
#18 - 2012-02-27 03:35:57 UTC
Quote:
No missle tier 3 ship either? WTF?


Well, thank God they aint gone and done it.
Cruise? Hahaha, good one.
Torps are freeking horrible without being heavily bonused, even with max missile support skills.

Look at the Manti. In order to do anything worthwhile at all with torps it has to have:
■10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level
(So a 50% percent bonus to both expl velocity and flight time at lvl 5, and yes it's needed)
■20% bonus to torpedo missile velocity per level (that's a 100% bonus at lvl 5, again, needed)
■Plus one Painter (minimum) and at least one Rigor fitted too.


Golem? Same kinda deal:
■10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level ( a 50% bonus).
■10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level (50% bonus). Hello, this bonus seems to repeat itself in ships that don't automatically suck, with Torps. Why's that I wonder?
■ 2 Rigors, 2 painters, T2 Javelins
And it aint exactly pvp economical.

Why not just fix torps instead of creating ships requiring massive bonuses in order to work against anything other than a structure or Super Capital. Every other BS sized weapon in the game, intended for use against Battleships does not require 2 rig slots, 2 midslots (painters), and these massive bonuses to successfully engage it's intended target class now do they?

Tldr: BS missile tier 3 BC? Screw that.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-02-27 04:01:26 UTC
rigors dont affect torps
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#20 - 2012-02-27 06:12:30 UTC
Maybe there is no tier 3 missile boat because we already got stealth bombers? Maybe there is no tier 3 drone boat because that would just be overpowered and have nothing to do with their anti-capital role?
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