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The "You Need To" Complex
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Cory Henderson
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-02-26 16:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Cory Henderson
As a noob to this world, I am very grateful for the assistance of veterans. Without the veterans, I would not be able to acclimate to this giant chaotic world as quickly as I have been. The numerous guides that have been published, the forum postings with tips for survival, and some of the folks I've had the pleasure of talking to, are extremely helpful.

However (comma), there is one thing that I've encountered within the short month I've been here that's apparently in no short supply. That being the "You need to" complex. I've been a veteran of MMORPGs all together since the days of the first Everquest. When someone comes at me with advice that starts with "You need to (blank)" or "You shouldn't (blank)" while dismissing my questions about other options without fully educating me on what other options there are available for me to make that decision with, I consider it as you trying to alienate me with biased opinions. Just because you believe anything other than what you think is right is in ill form or bad tactics doesn't mean I want to follow it. So yeah, I also ignore a lot of advice. But the point I'm making is if you really want to help noobs to thrive, include everything. Lay out ALL the options and let them make their own informed decisions. This "You need to" thing is for the ill informed.
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-02-26 17:39:37 UTC
Welcome to EvE!

You seem to have figured to have figured out one of the most important things already - you don't really 'need' to do anything and you're free to do pretty much whatever you want.

Hope it goes well for you.

KB Link
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2012-02-26 21:02:09 UTC
Yes and no. On some levels you're right, there are very few straight up 'must's in Eve. However, there are many things that make such a difference that they effectively are musts. For instance, there is no law in Eve that states you can't fly a BS without a T2 tank; that doesn't mean it's anything near a good idea though.

I completely understand that there are many variables like what you're talking about in Eve. But at the same time, as an experienced player who often explains things to newbies, I know that often it's simpler to just say "You need to be able to fit a T2 tank and use a full flight of drones, if not T2 drones, before getting in a BS". No, it's not strictly a requirement, but it's easier to list it as a requirement for people who aren't experienced enough to learn where they can and can't cut corners.

For me atleast, I do generally give complete examples of all of the choices and such, but sometimes it's much easier to just say "just do it this way" than explain the reasoning and details behind why it's better to do it that way. And the people I talk to know that I know what I'm talking about and that I do have a reason behind the scenes for giving the advice I give, but sometimes it's a royal pain to explain the detailed justification. IDK if I'm unique in how I act or not, but that's my reasoning behind all that.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-02-26 21:40:43 UTC
EvE is a very diverse and complicated game. If anybody actually took the time to explain all of the choices you can make with respect to anything really, it would take a very long time.

Like mxzf said, if you ask for advice regarding a specific aspect of EvE, it may just be easier for someone to tell you "this is what you need to do". Spending time and effort developing a rounded explanation is generally something people won't spend time on. I remember helping a friend get into the game when the Learning Skills were still in the game. I just told him that he needed to get these skills up to Level 4-5 as they would speed up his learning once the noob period ended. In retrospect, I could have told him the advantages and disadvantages of having these skills, but it would have been a waste of time. I just jumped to the bottom line that I was taught when I started playing: It was simply more beneficial for him to have them than not.

Come to think of it, he never came back after having to wait for these skills to train... but that is a separate issue.
Grikath
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-26 21:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Grikath
Cory Henderson wrote:
Lay out ALL the options and let them make their own informed decisions.


Highly contradictory, that.

Newbies are not informed enough to make "informed" decisions. Hell, most "veterans" aren't outside their niche of operations.
Describing all the options in EVE, even given a specific, intelligent question triggers the newbies TL;DR gene which makes the brain shut down.
And no newbie makes the ISK/hr to even start recompensing you for the time spent typing, re-typing, revisiting etc. you need to do even if you are inclined to write a comprehensive manual about a particular question/setup to begin with in chat.

Mind, teaching newbies, especially those that are able to make the cut is a labour of love involving quite a lot of time, and quite a lot of headdesking on occasion. Occasionally it delivers a gem which makes it all worth.
But there's a reason those manuals are out there: It is next to impossible to compress the information in them to a form that works in a chat channel, or even a lengthy mail if the question is specific/esoteric enough.

You hand newbies cookie-cutter basics which work, and from which they can experiment/expand themselves. If this takes the form of "you should do this this way", so be it. It's free advice, take it or leave it.
Everyone is completely free to ignore any advice and re-invent the wheel for themselves, just as long as they don't whine about it

Highsec isn't "Safe".  Neither is it a playground for bullies and bottomfeeders. So stop complaining and start playing the game already.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#6 - 2012-02-26 22:36:41 UTC
Cory Henderson wrote:
This "You need to" thing is for the ill informed.


A short list of about 300 articles that a new player would have to read in order to make an informed decision. The process will involve resolving conflicting advice from poorly written articles, articles which have become obsolete due to game mechanics changing, and articles which simply present the author's opinion as fact.

The "you need to" thing is a shortcut around the sheer volume of good and bad information, to give people some sane advice while they are still ingesting the guides. In some cases the advice giver has given up searching further and is handing out years-old advice that is no longer relevant, but that is up to the advice receiver to establish by informing themselves and coming to their own conclusions.

Information overload will kill any skerrick of enthusiasm the new player might have for the game. By necessity the advice giver needs to guide the rookie through the jungle along better travelled paths, before letting the rookie loose to have their own adventures.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-27 00:46:28 UTC
I usually ignore any advice given to me which is considered "certain" to the player given it, within reason. I see tons of it in the help channel and it pisses me off:

"Never mix weapons"

Which is why I usually give advice like

"It's usually not a good idea to mix weapons"


Anybody who says "You need to" I feel the same way...
Liam Mirren
#8 - 2012-02-27 00:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
It's like this: EVE is very complex and there's no single answer to anything, there's simply far too many variables at work. Apart from that there's far too many clueless folks and idiots so it's good to ask questions but always question answers. Anyone giving a simple answer is by definition almost certainly wrong, almost every answer should start with" that depends". So if you hear someone state "facts" you can be fairly certain that (apart from realising that most people are clueless) he's probably going to be wrong, unless it's backed by explaining the logic, reasoning and scenario behind these facts, showing you that it's very dependant on situation.

There IS good advice out there and if certain people state something then I'll assume it to be true simply because I know from past experience that said person only comes to conclusions based on facts, reasoning and a solid understanding of EVE. However, there's not many people like that, so do be careful.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2012-02-27 01:18:38 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
I usually ignore any advice given to me which is considered "certain" to the player given it, within reason. I see tons of it in the help channel and it pisses me off:

"Never mix weapons"

Which is why I usually give advice like

"It's usually not a good idea to mix weapons"


Anybody who says "You need to" I feel the same way...



I prefer "It's usually not a good idea to mix weapons, unless you enjoy being inept at killing anything and being laughed at on killmails."

Same goes for:

  • It's usually not a good idea to put lasers on a Rifter.
  • It's usually not a good idea to mine at Amamake top belt.
  • It's usually not a good idea to accept contracts spammed in Jita local.


Some "you need to" statements are just absolutely true. Of course, as everything else in Eve, you need to take them with a grain of salt, and realize everyone is biased. While that is true, there are some things that are simply "facts of life" in Eve. You can ask "Why should I never put lasers on a Rifter?" and you will be told "Because the Rifter gets great bonuses to projectile weapons, and does not have the cap to run lasers".

While "never ___" or "you should ___" are usually prefixes for strong recommendations, there are no sacrosanct rules or practices in Eve. Heck, I've flown an interceptor without a MWD to great success, but I still tell newbies that you shouldn't fly an interceptor without a MWD. Why? Because if you're asking about how to fly one, you don't know enough to make your own decisions about how to fly it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-02-27 10:17:57 UTC
Cory Henderson wrote:
if you really want to help noobs to thrive, include everything. Lay out ALL the options and let them make their own informed decisions. This "You need to" thing is for the ill informed.

It's not about *wanting to help* as much as it is about *wanting to learn*.

There's numerous types of noobs, some will just follow the advice without thinking further, they'll use it not knowing why. Maybe they'll figure some day, maybe not, who cares? if the advice seems enough for them, why would the guy giving it spontaneously bother with explanations on the whys and hows?

On the other hand, there's the bloody noob who asks for an advice while he did it in 42 other locations and found 3456 different answers on google, but already decided to follow another one. Again, why waste time and efforts giving all the explanations?

Finally, but this isn't an exhaustive list though, there's the ones that will question the advice to understand why, they're genuinely interested in understanding, so they're likely to be worth some time and efforts in explaining I think.

I think I read something similar around here, but the attitude makes the difference, those giving advices surely do so every day and sometimes see the same questions pop out several times a day, so in the end it's like applying for a job, if you stand out you're more likely to get some attention and be granted some time for further explanations.

No one will serve you everything on a silver plate in this game.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#11 - 2012-02-27 11:54:59 UTC
You need to stop complaining and train for a Drake!
malaire
#12 - 2012-02-27 12:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: malaire
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
You need to stop complaining and train for a Drake!

No, he doesn't want simple "You need to ..." advice.

Which means that he definitely needs to read http://www.isktheguide.com/ and learn by himself.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2012-02-27 14:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
mxzf wrote:
Yes and no. On some levels you're right, there are very few straight up 'must's in Eve. However, there are many things that make such a difference that they effectively are musts. For instance, there is no law in Eve that states you can't fly a BS without a T2 tank; that doesn't mean it's anything near a good idea though.

I completely understand that there are many variables like what you're talking about in Eve. But at the same time, as an experienced player who often explains things to newbies, I know that often it's simpler to just say "You need to be able to fit a T2 tank and use a full flight of drones, if not T2 drones, before getting in a BS". No, it's not strictly a requirement, but it's easier to list it as a requirement for people who aren't experienced enough to learn where they can and can't cut corners.

For me atleast, I do generally give complete examples of all of the choices and such, but sometimes it's much easier to just say "just do it this way" than explain the reasoning and details behind why it's better to do it that way. And the people I talk to know that I know what I'm talking about and that I do have a reason behind the scenes for giving the advice I give, but sometimes it's a royal pain to explain the detailed justification. IDK if I'm unique in how I act or not, but that's my reasoning behind all that.



This, pretty much. Usually when I help someone new I'll give them a "good" L1 mission fit (or whatever they were having trouble with). "Use this fit, it'll make things easier".

If they want to keep asking questions (some doSmile, which is great) about "well, why'd you go with this instead of that", then I'll start showing them really basic stuff about fitting for what they want to do...

For example, let's say a guy wanted to be at range in a tristan, rather than up close... and was asking why I went with 125mm railguns instead of 150s.

OK, you've probably noticed by now that each weapon has a lot of stats. We're gonna look at the most important ones for fitting, and fighting how you want to...

  • PG requirement
  • CPU requirement
  • Range
  • Falloff
  • Damage Modifier

Yeah, the 125 has less range/falloff/damage than the 150s, but the PG/CPU is lower so that we're able to fit [some extra tank mod]. Now, since you're already in the compare window, you can see that there are a lot of variations... the trick is to find the most effective guns at a price point you're comfortable with. Meta 0 will be the least effective, but cheapest ... and Meta 4 are the most effective but most expensive ... we're ignoring the officer/faction ones (the ones with the green tags) because they're usually hard to come by.


edited for clarity because some people don't know that there are 125/150mm railguns too Roll

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#14 - 2012-02-27 14:42:20 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

For example, let's say a guy wanted to be at range in a tristan, rather than up close... and was asking why I went with 125s instead of 150s.

~snip~


And yet this hypothetical newbie should never ever take your advice. "You need to fit blasters on a Tristan, not autocannons".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#15 - 2012-02-27 14:53:21 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Usually when I help someone new I'll give them a "good" L1 mission fit (or whatever they were having trouble with). "Use this fit, it'll make things easier".

If they want to keep asking questions (some doSmile, which is great) about "well, why'd you go with this instead of that", then I'll start showing them really basic stuff about fitting for what they want to do...


Yeah, that's pretty much what I end up doing most of the time too. Give them a fit/advice and then hope that they ask why I said what I did. If they're willing to ask me why I suggested one thing over another, then I'm more than happy to give a nice and complete answer.

I also tend to have the APIs of friends that I help often, so I can toss together EFT fits for them quickly that are tailor made to their skills. It also lets me change things out quick and give them the raw numbers differences of why one thing is better than another, which can be quite helpful for explaining the exact reasons why something's better.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#16 - 2012-02-27 14:55:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

For example, let's say a guy wanted to be at range in a tristan, rather than up close... and was asking why I went with 125s instead of 150s.

~snip~


And yet this hypothetical newbie should never ever take your advice. "You need to fit blasters on a Tristan, not autocannons".


*psst* I think Velicitia meant 150mm vs 125mm railguns, since the example talked about wanting to be at range rather than up close.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-02-27 15:03:25 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
For example, let's say a guy wanted to be at range in a tristan, rather than up close... and was asking why I went with 125s instead of 150s.

OK, you've probably noticed by now that each weapon has a lot of stats. We're gonna look at the most important ones for fitting, and fighting how you want to...

  • PG requirement
  • CPU requirement
  • Range
  • Falloff
  • Damage Modifier

Yeah, the 125 has less range/falloff/damage than the 150s, but the PG/CPU is lower so that we're able to fit [some extra tank mod]. Now, since you're already in the compare window, you can see that there are a lot of variations... the trick is to find the most effective guns at a price point you're comfortable with. Meta 1 will be the least effective, but cheapest ... and Meta 4 are the most effective but most expensive ... we're ignoring the officer/faction ones (the ones with the green tags) because they're usually hard to come by.


I see what you did there Velicitia. I'm on that topic too about the Tristan and the 150s vs 125s.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#18 - 2012-02-27 16:09:09 UTC
mxzf wrote:
*psst* I think Velicitia meant 150mm vs 125mm railguns, since the example talked about wanting to be at range rather than up close.


Wait, I thought we were discussing unintelligent advice for newbies, which sort of includes "winmatar is OP, use autocannons on EVERYTHING".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#19 - 2012-02-27 16:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
mxzf wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

For example, let's say a guy wanted to be at range in a tristan, rather than up close... and was asking why I went with 125s instead of 150s.

~snip~


And yet this hypothetical newbie should never ever take your advice. "You need to fit blasters on a Tristan, not autocannons".


*psst* I think Velicitia meant 150mm vs 125mm railguns, since the example talked about wanting to be at range rather than up close.



this.

Proof:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/125mm_Railgun_I
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/150mm_Railgun_I

fixed my post for mr. winmatar... Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#20 - 2012-02-27 17:31:03 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

fixed my post for mr. winmatar... Blink

I think railguns are pretty cool, and have had fun using them. I just happen to be a bit cynical about the average forum warrior and the obsession with Minmatar being OP.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
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