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Electorate manipulation, the emerging Goon tactic?

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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-02-26 07:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
After so many discussions to ensure that the democratic process we have is seen as fair and should not be changed as a result of allowing people to vote freely for whichever candidate they prefer, we now see a shift in direction in Goon tactics, in a direct attempt to influence electorate representation.

Should this mean that all the arguments about voting blocs being a valid method of obtaining fair representaion be suddenly overturned?

(Discussion material taken from the Official Raiden thread where a member of the Goons is suggesting that voting choices should be changed)

Grumpy Owly wrote:
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Andski wrote:


"why vote for elise when he's backed by three alliances now?"

great job dudes!


Why do Goons feel the need to dictate how people should vote?


why do nameless forum alts feel the need to dictate how people should vote?


I dont think they should, but if you can site someone who does other than personal support for a candidate I'd equally see it as an attempt to discredit voter choice.

I mean people are calling for voters rights and to go to the ballot box in a fair manner. Such that the representation should be afforded by this process. And each time someone throws out a thread about our diplomatic process and changing it, the argument is to select a candidate using the voting process.

Now I see Goons feel sufficiently arrogant to judge other people's voting choices as invalid. So on the same token should we now go back to these representation arguments and re-discover opinions about any power bloc voting?

I don't think you'd like to somehow. So why the double standard?
Andski wrote:
two alliances publicly state support for a candidate

other voters decide that said candidate doesn't need their votes because of the two alliances backing said candidate

this is not hard


No it's not hard at all. You simply want to influence voter choice.

Presumably as your equally hoping to establish the Mittani's call for an unparralled victory to ensure his chairmanship. So why can't alliances equally tactically vote for an alternative candidate? See, still a double standard.

Not sure wether it's fair to build your big pile of hubris in this thread however, perhaps we should start a new thread about it in the CSM forum?


As much as I'm reluctant to suggest it as I would like to see our democratic process continue to its conclusion, does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions accordingly, I seriously hope not, and hope its a case of allowing democracy to take its course.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-26 08:36:34 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
an officer of the Goons


and it all went downhill from there - I'm not a director or "officer" or whatever

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3 - 2012-02-26 08:44:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
an officer of the Goons

and it all went downhill from there - I'm not a director or "officer" or whatever

Some people don't quite know their facts. It's understandable, only important goons are allowed on these sacred forums.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-02-26 08:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
an officer of the Goons


and it all went downhill from there - I'm not a director or "officer" or whatever


Ah very well, despite your comments in the EvE Uni channel about being a recruitment representative. No matter I shall change the discrepancy for accuracy as requested.

(Please dont see this as a personal attack Andski, not intended, but I think it's fair to discuss the potential shift in opinion on the subject. As such i want to make a discussion on ensuring democratic values and not personal opinion)

If you are clarifying this is a personal stance and not relevant as a Goon initiative then I think there is likley little concern about it other than personal views. If so can you comment to that effect?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-26 08:52:35 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
an officer of the Goons


and it all went downhill from there - I'm not a director or "officer" or whatever


Ah very well, despite your comments in the EvE Uni channel about being a recruitment representative. No matter I shall change the discrepancy for accuracy as requested.

(Please dont see this as a personal attack Andski, not intended, but I think it's fair to discuss the potential shift in opinion on the subject. As such i want to make a discussion on ensuring democratic values and not personal opinion)

If you are clarifying this is a personal stance and not relevant as a Goon initiative then I think there is likley little concern about it other than personal views. If so can you comment to that effect?


ahahaha putting words in my mouth

shoo away lil forum alt, come back with your main

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-02-26 08:55:10 UTC
Erm, kind of asking you to clarify the concerns on the subject due to the comments you raised. I thought that was obvious from the fact I posed it as a question.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-26 08:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
I said that Raiden and NCdot publicly announcing their support of Elise for CSM would just backfire when the typical Jita Park lurkers refuse to vote for any "aligned" candidates, and votes that would otherwise go to him would end up going to hopeless candidates or, ugh, Xenuria or D3.

I don't see why I need to clarify that. This isn't "electorate manipulation," it's a fact. Most unaligned voters refuse to vote for bloc candidates.

Feel free to bring any further allegations my way under your main. And I don't mean your "Venus Rinah" or "Pelador Rova" characters. Certainly not Shazam whatever.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-02-26 09:02:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
I said that Raiden and NCdot publicly announcing their support of Elise for CSM would just backfire when the typical Jita Park lurkers refuse to vote for any "aligned" candidates, and votes that would otherwise go to him would end up going to hopeless candidates or, ugh, Xenuria or D3.

I don't see why I need to clarify that. This isn't "electorate manipulation," it's a fact. Most unaligned voters refuse to vote for bloc candidates.

Feel free to bring any further allegations my way under your main. And I don't mean your "Venus Rinah" or "Pelador Rova" characters. Certainly not Shazam whatever.


Thank you for explaning your stance.

So to round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed.

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-26 09:04:22 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer?


You are aware that that is the case, right? Nobody is forced to vote for anyone.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-02-26 09:06:41 UTC
Andski wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer?


You are aware that that is the case, right? Nobody is forced to vote for anyone.


Thank you, discussion clarified from my perspective.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

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Nethras
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-02-26 09:28:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
You are aware that that is the case, right? Nobody is forced to vote for anyone.


This. The vast majority of an alliance will follow who they're leaders want them to vote for (easier, and they're usually one of the best candidates from the alliance's general perspective anyway). But a completely full API doesn't give any voter info for exactly that reason as far as I know. The only way I can think of to actually control how people vote would be to require them to give you the account info and let you vote, which would hopefully result in a rebellion against leaders trying that and would be a massive TOS violation for account sharing that could easily get everyone involved banned on that basis alone.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2012-02-26 12:10:09 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Andski wrote:
I said that Raiden and NCdot publicly announcing their support of Elise for CSM would just backfire when the typical Jita Park lurkers refuse to vote for any "aligned" candidates, and votes that would otherwise go to him would end up going to hopeless candidates or, ugh, Xenuria or D3.

I don't see why I need to clarify that. This isn't "electorate manipulation," it's a fact. Most unaligned voters refuse to vote for bloc candidates.

Feel free to bring any further allegations my way under your main. And I don't mean your "Venus Rinah" or "Pelador Rova" characters. Certainly not Shazam whatever.


Thank you for explaning your stance.

So to round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed.

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to vote freely for the candidate they prefer?



To round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed:

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to freely express their opinions for candidates as they prefer?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-02-26 12:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Malcanis wrote:
To round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed:

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to freely express their opinions for candidates as they prefer?


Freedom of expression is fundamental to a democratic process.

This doesn't retract from the hypocrasy potentially identified that in many discussions we have had about the CSM electorate system. The influential concluded opinion seems to be to ensure full entitlement to vote freely, which I personally agree with, and this is/was the main argument supported. And as such the subject of representation is as a result based on the ballot box. This was as an objection placed by others to the influences of power bloc voting and as such is very relevant to the topic of discussion that caused concern as to why I thought a double standard was being exercised.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#14 - 2012-02-26 12:52:10 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
To round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed:

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to freely express their opinions for candidates as they prefer?


Freedom of expression is fundamental to a democratic process.

This doesn't retract from the hypocrasy potentially identified that in many discussions we have had about the CSM electorate system. The influential concluded opinion seems to be to ensure full entitlement to vote freely, which I personally agree with, and this is/was the main argument supported. And as such the subject of representation is as a result based on the ballot box. This was as an objection placed by others to the influences of power bloc voting and as such is very relevant to the topic of discussion that caused concern as to why I thought a double standard was being exercised.



But who was advocating restrictions on how people could vote? No Goon that I have seen. Certainly, plenty of them have expressed an opinion on how they think people should vote, but if we're going look for "hypocrasy" then perhaps we should be looking at those who believe that the CSM electorate should be "protected" from the electorate freely voting for the wrong candidates (Mittani, "null-sec" candidates), and the democratic process "protected" from being contaminated by electors freely expressing their opinions (Goons).

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-26 13:03:39 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
To round things off, can I ask you to answer the following question if anything to put the issue to bed:

Should all players as part of the electorate be allowed to freely express their opinions for candidates as they prefer?


Freedom of expression is fundamental to a democratic process.

This doesn't retract from the hypocrasy potentially identified that in many discussions we have had about the CSM electorate system. The influential concluded opinion seems to be to ensure full entitlement to vote freely, which I personally agree with, and this is/was the main argument supported. And as such the subject of representation is as a result based on the ballot box. This was as an objection placed by others to the influences of power bloc voting and as such is very relevant to the topic of discussion that caused concern as to why I thought a double standard was being exercised.


Beautiful ideology, sure, I completely agree on this.

Unfortunately we do know this is not how it happens, try to give your personal opinion with your "main char" already in your own corp and some yellow smiles tell you not to say it twice or louder because your char or you corp might well get a 24h delay to leave the zone.

So no, you're not free to say whatever you want, just like irl. Comedy, tragedy, theatre, it's all you have the right to claim but the serious business "your choice" remains secret and it's a very good thing votes are not public.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-02-26 13:19:41 UTC
I'll leave you to continue your discussion on what democracy means to you as you like based on your opinions. My initial concerns regarding certain comments have been satiated as a result of asking some questions.

I personally dont want to get heavily embroiled in debating political theory for the CSM process. Firstly because moderators have asked us not to do so, and secondly I'm really not interested in that level of mental masturbation about the philosophy of what democracy really means. I'd rather try and enjoy my time in EvE.

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ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-02-26 15:55:26 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

As much as I'm reluctant to suggest it as I would like to see our democratic process continue to its conclusion, does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions accordingly,


No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. Whats your problem?
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-02-26 16:14:34 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

As much as I'm reluctant to suggest it as I would like to see our democratic process continue to its conclusion, does this mean we should now open the book again on all those representation discussions accordingly,


No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. Whats your problem?


You missed a very relevant bit:

Grumpy Owly wrote:
... I seriously hope not, and hope its a case of allowing democracy to take its course.

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ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-02-26 16:41:27 UTC
Allow me to rephrase ....

No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. So why are you reviving the topic of screwing with the voting system which we both think is a ~dumb idea~?
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-02-26 16:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Allow me to rephrase ....

No, it doesnt. People are arguing about who to vote for. That's democracy. They're allowed to. So why are you reviving the topic of screwing with the voting system which we both think is a ~dumb idea~?


read the thread.

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