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Draft Proposal: "Small Gang Nullsec Homesteader Regions "

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2011-09-27 07:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Bagehi wrote:

2. Add regions. The more regions, the more people, the more fighting.


No, this is simply not true. If CCP were to add, say, 6 more regions of sov 0.0 this downtime, then what would happen within 1 month? It would all be controlled by existing powerblocs. Much of sov 0.0 is largely deserted (and before anyone chimes in, no this is not because of the anomaly nerf)

Sov space supports mighty empires. If you want a place for other playstyles, you need different types of space to support that.

"Geography dictates politics".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Signal11th
#22 - 2011-09-27 11:05:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


simplest way to do this is to go to NPC 0.0




This basically, if you want small alliances/corp to enter 0.0 just dramatically increase the size of NPC space and increase the amount of entry gates to a region. Very simple.
I find alot of the problems with EVE are usually because CCP have tried to be too clever with a certain dymanic and then spend the rest of their time trying to fix it.

The simplest answer is usually the best.


The history of Venal shows us that as soon as there's something of real value in NPC 0.0, it's no more immune to the superblobs than anywhere else.

We absolutely should have another 2-3 regions like Curse or Stain (large, lots of stations, lots of pockets, lots of agents), but they're not the answer for those who want to escape the big fleet lifestyle.



Very true and to be honest the only way to counter big blobs (which is what people will always do if allowed) is to limit the amount of corps/members allowed in an alliance and cut down the amount of blues an alliance can have. I must admit I haven't thought through this one completely yet but until there is a limiting factor in numbers /blues then the blob will always appear.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Andrea Griffin
#23 - 2011-09-27 14:52:48 UTC
I have asked for small pockets of null only accessible by wormholes since wormholes were introduced. It really could be a new style of game play. These are systems that have never been seen by the current population of pod pilots. They're barren and empty.

This may be an opportune time to allow players to take control of a system with nothing in them.

If you want jump gates to a nearby system then you'll have to build and power it. If you want a new asteroid belt once the current ones have been depleted, you'll have to fire a large object to impact a nearby moon to spew chunks into space, creating a belt that lasts until it is mined out. Perhaps there is a sleeper presence here.

Sov mechanics may need to be different here and something would have to be done about super capitals. With these systems isolated it would be difficult to get a large force inside to contest ownership. Perhaps the native NPCs, some kind of less aggressive Sleepers, technically own the system but allow players control in exchange for doing things or showing force. Something similar to FW mechanics could be used here, which would remove capitals from the sov equation.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2011-09-27 16:15:56 UTC
Signal11th wrote:

Very true and to be honest the only way to counter big blobs (which is what people will always do if allowed) is to limit the amount of corps/members allowed in an alliance and cut down the amount of blues an alliance can have. I must admit I haven't thought through this one completely yet but until there is a limiting factor in numbers /blues then the blob will always appear.


Yeah I can tell. Sorry to be blunt, but your proposed solution simply fails on every level: it's trivially easy to circumvent, and even it wasn't, it'd be counter to the "sandbox" in that it imposes arbitrary restrictions, and it would artificially penalise a valid game style merely because you don't like it.

Seriously though, it's incredibly easy to work around:

FC "OK we're teaming up with 17 other alliances for tonight's fight. Unless specifically ordered otherwise, we're NRDS in this system. Please add alliance tickers to your overview".

Bam. Circumvented.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Signal11th
#25 - 2011-09-28 10:38:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Signal11th wrote:

Very true and to be honest the only way to counter big blobs (which is what people will always do if allowed) is to limit the amount of corps/members allowed in an alliance and cut down the amount of blues an alliance can have. I must admit I haven't thought through this one completely yet but until there is a limiting factor in numbers /blues then the blob will always appear.


Yeah I can tell. Sorry to be blunt, but your proposed solution simply fails on every level: it's trivially easy to circumvent, and even it wasn't, it'd be counter to the "sandbox" in that it imposes arbitrary restrictions, and it would artificially penalise a valid game style merely because you don't like it.

Seriously though, it's incredibly easy to work around:

FC "OK we're teaming up with 17 other alliances for tonight's fight. Unless specifically ordered otherwise, we're NRDS in this system. Please add alliance tickers to your overview".

Bam. Circumvented.


Totally agree with you.

Very true, it only fails on every level because of the system that is in place at moment, but in every obstacle that is brought up a way round can be found. That suggestion was the first thing that came into my head hence the reason its not a proposal but its something that needs to be looked at as 0.0 is completely borked at the moment.

You should not be able to fly 40 jumps in 0.0 in a frigate and see nothing or at best 5 people, 0.0 should have something for everyone but there's so many systems that are worthless or pointless.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2011-09-28 15:37:52 UTC
Signal11th wrote:

You should not be able to fly 40 jumps in 0.0 in a frigate and see nothing or at best 5 people, 0.0 should have something for everyone but there's so many systems that are worthless or pointless.


100% agreed. This links to another of my hobby horses: Systems in EVE are perceptually "small" - they just don't feel very big - even though in absolute size they're billions of kilometres across, because there are only a few meaningful places to be in them, and those places are 1 grid size each, and because it's incredibly quick to travel acros them and across the map.

The way to make EVE larger isn't just to spam more systems onto the map (although I am more than OK with having more systems if that means we get more types of space); it's to make it so that more happens in a larger number of places within those systems. A the moment, a a moons that his hundreds of Km across or planet that is supposedly thousands of kilometers in diameter has an "orbital" grid a few hundred k across on one side of the planet - this needs to change to an actual orbital volume.Moons are static and don't orbit planets, but they should do so on perceptible timescales.

It also means nothing to be with a few hundred k of the surface of a planet several times more massive that Jupiter- there are no gravity wells, there are no radiation fields, there are no magnetic fields, no dust clouds, no environmental effects. Planetary rings should be real physical, navigatable places, rings that are hundreds of thousands of kilometers in length, dotted with asteroids, icesteroids, anchorable microPOS for individual players, NPC rat hideouts, exploration sites, etc. Fully exploring a single one should be the work of days, even weeks for an individual player. The asteroids and icesteroids and sites in a ring should disappear when exhausted, and respawn in a new location to stop things becoming predictable.

Planets should be able to support multiple outposts, and it should be possible to have more than 1 POS orbit a moon.

A single 0.0 system constructed in this way should be able to support multiple, even dozens of pod pilots. Individuals might be quite happy to stay in a single systems for days or even weeks simply exploring a genuinely massive system.

Instrasystem Travel should also take longer; it should mean much more than it currently does to undertake a 100AU warp vs a 1AU warp. This will increase the perception of size, and it will also add a tactical dimension for FCs and solers - it will become worthwhile to decoy your pursuers to the other end of a system, for instance. That would also straight up increase travel time for subcaps. Similarly, capital jump ranges should be proportionately reduced. That, combined with the perceptual size increase and the increased possible population density, would enourage people to look for politics in their own region - perhaps even their own constellations - rather than on the other side of the map.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Raid'En
#27 - 2011-09-28 16:37:39 UTC
i have also proposed these things of nullsec pockets inside w-space, and still continue to think it would be a great addition to eve.
i agree with most of what have been said here.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-10-07 06:27:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Bagehi wrote:

2. Add regions. The more regions, the more people, the more fighting.


No, this is simply not true. If CCP were to add, say, 6 more regions of sov 0.0 this downtime, then what would happen within 1 month? It would all be controlled by existing powerblocs. Much of sov 0.0 is largely deserted (and before anyone chimes in, no this is not because of the anomaly nerf)

Sov space supports mighty empires. If you want a place for other playstyles, you need different types of space to support that.

"Geography dictates politics".


Overall the idea has merit but it doesn't address the issues underlying where we are now.

instead of wormholes, it could just as easily be gates with 20-200 LY ranges to remote systems. No difference in the safety factor - far easier to find and get to those places.

The key problem though still remains - the "I win" factor of blobs and super caps, coupled with far easier methods of "lazy" style killing over earning and defending.

It's just too easy to setup a trap and sit there waiting until someone steps in it by "camping" places. Little activity needed with camping but lots needed with earning as you have to move things around for buying and selling.

While this style of play remains so viable and popular, all such approaches can hope to accomplish is delaying the inevitable situation we already have.

We HAVE lowsec. We HAVE NPC nullsec. The "super cap" problems are real but far less prevalent than made out to be. "more fear than substance".

So if people won't risk lowsec nor NPC nullsec today - why would they do so in such remote locations? And if they do, how long until those "cannot tolerate" impediments follow them out there and shut that spot down? It's not *IF* they will - it's *WHEN* they will.

Mechanics need adjusting and if that's done - then a shift in population will occur without adding or modifying in such a fashion.

Again, I do like the notion as you outline but it will only "freshen" a portion of game play versus correct issues that have 80% of all characters crammed into 1/6th of the game.
Sor'Ral
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
#29 - 2011-10-07 16:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sor'Ral
Mocam wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Bagehi wrote:

2. Add regions. The more regions, the more people, the more fighting.


No, this is simply not true. If CCP were to add, say, 6 more regions of sov 0.0 this downtime, then what would happen within 1 month? It would all be controlled by existing powerblocs. Much of sov 0.0 is largely deserted (and before anyone chimes in, no this is not because of the anomaly nerf)

Sov space supports mighty empires. If you want a place for other playstyles, you need different types of space to support that.

"Geography dictates politics".


Overall the idea has merit but it doesn't address the issues underlying where we are now.

instead of wormholes, it could just as easily be gates with 20-200 LY ranges to remote systems. No difference in the safety factor - far easier to find and get to those places.

The key problem though still remains - the "I win" factor of blobs and super caps, coupled with far easier methods of "lazy" style killing over earning and defending.

It's just too easy to setup a trap and sit there waiting until someone steps in it by "camping" places. Little activity needed with camping but lots needed with earning as you have to move things around for buying and selling.

While this style of play remains so viable and popular, all such approaches can hope to accomplish is delaying the inevitable situation we already have.

We HAVE lowsec. We HAVE NPC nullsec. The "super cap" problems are real but far less prevalent than made out to be. "more fear than substance".

So if people won't risk lowsec nor NPC nullsec today - why would they do so in such remote locations? And if they do, how long until those "cannot tolerate" impediments follow them out there and shut that spot down? It's not *IF* they will - it's *WHEN* they will.

Mechanics need adjusting and if that's done - then a shift in population will occur without adding or modifying in such a fashion.

Again, I do like the notion as you outline but it will only "freshen" a portion of game play versus correct issues that have 80% of all characters crammed into 1/6th of the game.



You may be right ... but the big Nullsec Alliances OWN the CSM and CCP now ... they're not going to let anyone significantly nerf their Blob warfare (and it's not even clear that it SHOULD be nerfed when there's a bunch of ppl that LIKE it) .... so I say, let them continue to have what they have, and let's add some new territory/functionality rather than fighting a losing battle over who gets nerfed and who doesn't?
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#30 - 2011-10-09 09:36:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[
Instrasystem Travel should also take longer; it should mean much more than it currently does to undertake a 100AU warp vs a 1AU warp. This will increase the perception of size, and it will also add a tactical dimension for FCs and solers - it will become worthwhile to decoy your pursuers to the other end of a system, for instance. That would also straight up increase travel time for subcaps. Similarly, capital jump ranges should be proportionately reduced. That, combined with the perceptual size increase and the increased possible population density, would enourage people to look for politics in their own region - perhaps even their own constellations - rather than on the other side of the map.


Couln't agree more.

That alone (or, alternatively, making warp speed drastically slower) will solve 99% of the issues with blobing and having few RMTers controlling all of 0.0

If an entity is to assert its claim over a territory, is has to be actually present there. Obviously, if it takes you days to reach distant provinces of your space empire with any meaningful military force, then your claim are very weak and opens the space up for grabs by independent settlers.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
#31 - 2011-10-09 10:11:01 UTC
Its needs more possibilities of inter regional travel ie hidden acceleration gates:

Like wormholes but than without all the proby stuff and more common. This improves small gang pvp. Maybe some visible timers on it and/or mass restrictions. Introduce special probes for them. Structure probes with filters on it so u can only filter hidden acceleration gates out from pos and sov ect on results. Maybe only restric these gates to 0.0 only. or their equal true sec only (0.0 always 0.0 high always high). Maybe add a 3 random region genarator on it. So u can always pick out of 3 regions (inc high, low, 0.0). Let say player a finds gate, and can select:
-domain, system xx
-stain, system xx
-venal, system xx

This would be the invention of eve history!!! pvp ftw!!! no more long 40 jumps travel, find gate, make quick ganky gang and gank quick some ppl

For the less educated ppl amung us; why this is not the same as wh:

-a direct wh from 0.0 to 0.0 are rare (ccp knows how rare), maybe 1 in 5 constalations (each 7 systems = probing down all sigs in 35 system takes atleast 2 hours)
-Probing all sigs untill u find a whormhole thats suitable for transportation takes too long
-from experiance probing 2 or 3 entire wormholes untill u find maybe 1 0.0 to 0.0 link takes too long, thats if your lucky to get one that go´s to hostile space
-in almost any case (unless u are lucky and find on first change wh to a suitable 0.0) it takes atleast 2 hours to find/probe a direct 0.0 link. probe 2 hours, scout formup 30 mins, roam 2 hours = 4,5 hours = el to mucho eve play
Shingorash
Sons of Luminaire
#32 - 2011-10-16 08:07:41 UTC
I don't really see a problem with adding more space. In the good old days there where a lot more small gang / solo fights because of the space being drawn out. Why not add more space and spread the players out a little bit more.

Open up Jove space and make them part of the game somehow.

It wouldn't exactly be difficult to add a new pirate faction to the game and stick a low sec area and couple of null sec areas off it (NPC 0.0 and Sov 0.0).

Adding more space is quite possibly one solution that I think would work, increasing SOV costs would help a little as well as it means the massive alliances wont just take the space for no reason and do bugger all with it.

There are a few holes available for Pirate faction ships.

Caldari / Minmatar
Gallente / Amarr

So you could technically add based on those 2 variations;

2/4 new low sec regions
4/8 new 0.0 regions

There are a couple of big holes in the map at the moment.

Also I think making the overall map a bit more round rather than flat would help as getting around for smaller ships would be a lot easier, since when are universes flat?

Regarding caps why not make it so only 1 cap at a time can use a Cyno across a region area, limitless jumps within a region but takes longer to move everything across a region would help I think.
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