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Draft Proposal: "Small Gang Nullsec Homesteader Regions "

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Author
Sor'Ral
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
#1 - 2011-09-08 02:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sor'Ral
Currently Nullsec is dominated by Lage Alliances and Blob Warfare - the next Blue or Red Blob never more than a cyno away, so unless you like worshipping the next Napoleon or Caesar, you might look for more out of the way / independend diggs.

Could we instead build upon the popular success of Wormholes, to encourage more small gang warfare / settlement of Nullsec space?

Draft Proposal: "Small Gang Nullsec Homesteader Regions "
- Create new "Small Gang Homsteader" regions of Nullsec, on the outskirts or beyond dominated Alliance space?
- Create new "Small Gang SOV Mechanics", that would scale with the development of both the small gangs, and their space
- Tie the number/mass of ships able to travel there, to the Small Gang SOV Mechanics (very remote system, very small group of homesteaders = small daily mass limit on the stargate, etc.).
- As the size and influence (average logged in users, mining rates, ratting yields, whatever) of the Homesteading Corp increases, the mass limit on the stargate would increase proportionally, allowing larger enemy corps to raid.
- Small Gang Homesteaders would still need to depend more heavily on nullsec trade routes / neighboring True Alliance help space for trade / transport / etc.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2011-09-08 09:25:13 UTC
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
#3 - 2011-09-10 00:38:58 UTC
I would LOVE to see this implemented in future development. We desperately need more small gang drivers/content. +1

Hmmm

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-09-11 12:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


simplest way to do this is to go to NPC 0.0
Sor'Ral
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
#5 - 2011-09-11 14:40:54 UTC
How so Malcanis? (serious question)
Anshu Zephyran
Knavery Inc.
#6 - 2011-09-11 19:33:37 UTC
Maybe he means to create areas in W-space where sov can be claimed?
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#7 - 2011-09-12 05:58:03 UTC
I belive he means to add small patchs of k-space that can only be gotten to though wormhole space.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2011-09-12 12:45:42 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
I belive he means to add small patchs of k-space that can only be gotten to though wormhole space.


Exactly. If you add new space that can be directly accessed via current K-space, then what could prevent large groups dominating small ones in this new space?

The emergence of increasingly larger groups in a contiguous habitable area is as inevitable as it has been in RL, and for the same reasons. The only way to keep "space nations" small is to make it extremely difficult to travel. The easier travel & logistics are, the more quickly you will see large groups (blobs, if you like) emerge. In the distant past, nations were small, because once they grew past a certain size, the outlying provinces were impossible to defend or control due to the communications & travel barrier. As technology improved, with inventions like horses for riding, roads, telegraphs, navies, etc, then the maximum sustainable size of a nation increased. Each time that maximum size increased then not long after, one nation or another would grow to that size, forcing others to follow suit or perish or be dominated. We saw similar progress in EVE, with the proliferation of capital ships, jump bridges, titan bridges, etc. Each addition made force projection easier and increased the maximum viable size of a player empire.

W-space has conditions such that it's relatively easy to move a small fleet, but very very difficult to move a large fleet, to a specific system. And once that large fleet has been moved, it is no easier to move it back home. Thus we don't see the 1000-man blobs in W-space. Even in W-space, relatively large and powerful alliances have emerged and claimed most of the best systems, but there's a practical cap on how big they can become and remain manageable or coherent.

That's why NPC 0.0 is no real answer. It's far better than sov 0.0, of course, but still far too hospitable to megafleets. Also, there just isn't enough of it. That said, I strongly agree that we need more NPC space to act as a spawning ground for small & new alliances to get an initial foothold in K-space 0.0.

We also need to accept that sov 0.0 will be the battleground of large coalitions for the forseeable future unless CCP implement some VERY radical changes (eg: reduce capital jump ranges by 50-80%, remove smuggler gates, reduce warp speeds by 50%, remove local as an intel tool, etc.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-09-12 14:58:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


I LOVE this idea.

CCP has 3 regions sitting out there, completely inaccessible to normal pod pilots... why not split two of those regions up into small constellations, accessible only via wormholes. (leave one region for CCP to play in)

Those K-space areas can claim sov... and also maybe have Jovians? (it would tie in well with the storyline, AND provide new content!)

Or maybe create a Jove - Sleeper connection?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2011-09-12 18:24:49 UTC
Zagam wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


I LOVE this idea.

CCP has 3 regions sitting out there, completely inaccessible to normal pod pilots... why not split two of those regions up into small constellations, accessible only via wormholes. (leave one region for CCP to play in)

Those K-space areas can claim sov... and also maybe have Jovians? (it would tie in well with the storyline, AND provide new content!)

Or maybe create a Jove - Sleeper connection?


Why not have them altogether free of rats? I know that seems radical, but bear with me. People living in these "pocket regions" would have access to ore, moons and would be able to claim sovereignty (and thus have jump clones, etc), but to make their ISK, they'd have to venture into W-space - and take the risk of drawing the attention of whatever groups inhabited the wormholes today.

On the one hand, the inhabitants of these pockets would have a large incumbent advantage with access to stations and so forth. On the other hand, they'd be faced with the challenge of permeable, ever-shifting borders, no meaningful way to cyno-jam their systems, and constantly changing neighbours. There would be no question of just being able to "turtle up" and grind ISK and squeeze out supers in safe space.

In fact building supers in these pocket regions would be a huge gamble. They would give a great defensive advantage, but... if you lose that space, your supers are stuck in there. How's that for some risk:reward?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#11 - 2011-09-12 22:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Two step
I worry that adding space like that would result in some group building 10 or so supercaps in their pocket and making themselves basically immune from attack. Maybe the supercap nerf will fix this, but it would still be a tremendous defensive advantage. There are already several w-space systems that are nearly impossible to attack, and I worry this would make things worse...

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Sor'Ral
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
#12 - 2011-09-13 03:40:20 UTC
Two step wrote:
I worry that adding space like that would result in some group building 10 or so supercaps in their pocket and making themselves basically immune from attack. Maybe the supercap nerf will fix this, but it would still be a tremendous defensive advantage. There are already several w-space systems that are nearly impossible to attack, and I worry this would make things worse...



Just spitballing, but .... maybe one of the "small gang sov" mechanics, could be that neighboring systems could never be more than "X" levels of "development" above each other? .... so in order to have one system capable of containing SuperCaps, the neighboring systems would likewise have to have some reasonable level of development (or nearly so) ... and so on and so on, so that you develop clusters of "more developed" systems but retain small, isolated systems on the outskirts?

The trick might be to allow these systems to retain critial aspects of WH Space (difficulty of transport, lack of 100% dependable "Local", etc.), but still be somehow slightly MORE civilized or connected than WH Space is ...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2011-09-13 06:40:13 UTC
Two step wrote:
I worry that adding space like that would result in some group building 10 or so supercaps in their pocket and making themselves basically immune from attack. Maybe the supercap nerf will fix this, but it would still be a tremendous defensive advantage. There are already several w-space systems that are nearly impossible to attack, and I worry this would make things worse...


Then you'd better make sure that that supercap nerf is effective, hadn't you?

Also note that supers in pocket regions would only be of defensive value. That's a heck of a lot of resources to spend on ships that will be forever confined to the same 5-8 systems.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Laechyd Eldgorn
Molden Heath Angels
#14 - 2011-09-18 16:02:34 UTC
how about simply getting back to basics and making current space larger aka logistics more difficult etc. maybe jb ranges cut down...

there's already plenty of space no one is really interested about, but no one can realyl go claim it since if they do there's soon 500 man titan blob bashing their towers.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2011-09-18 19:39:05 UTC
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
how about simply getting back to basics and making current space larger aka logistics more difficult etc. maybe jb ranges cut down...

there's already plenty of space no one is really interested about, but no one can realyl go claim it since if they do there's soon 500 man titan blob bashing their towers.


Your second line is the answer to your first line. Simply adding more space won't help, as you correctly observe. Even just increasing effective distances won't really do all that much unless the change is really radical, as I mentioned above. You need to fundamentally change the nature of the way travelling works, as was done in W-space, in order to reduce the effective maximum group size and change the ship types used.

At issue is the right of players to be able to participate in a mighty space empire. Should that be a valid mode of play in EVE? If we agree that yes it is, then obviously sov 0.0 is the place to do it. That being the case, we shouldn't be asking CCP to change the way 0.0 works for logistics & travel, we should be asking CCP to add new types of space like W-space, those types being configured to match the playstyles we want to accommodate.

For instance, imagine a derelict, abandoned region of K-space that was colonised and only ever saw old prototype jump gates installed that are unable to jump ships with a mass greater than 15M Kg, and that had to recharge after every jump (so 15 1M Kg Frigates could jump through at once, but the gate would need 1-2 minutes to recharge if a plated Damnation went through.)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Plyn
Uncharted.
#16 - 2011-09-20 14:57:14 UTC
See my idea from the old forums here: http://eve-search.com/thread/1551371/page/1#15

Needs to be more than constellation sized, to make it harder to defend. If pockets were ~1-3 regions wide, with the wormholes connecting them to w-space constantly moving, it would be pretty hard for one group to lock it all down.

Since there would initially be no stations in this area, ISK is pretty useless to the inhabitants. Spawn things (like drones!) for ratters which drop minerals. These will be nice to have, since virtually everything will have to be built on-site.

If you are really concerned about supercaps taking over the pockets (just like they already have with the rest of null) you could always make it so they can't go through the wormholes to enter the pockets. Don't give the ability to install super-capital building upgrades. Regular capitals would be fine though, I assume.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#17 - 2011-09-20 18:03:40 UTC
Perhaps the best implementation would be a range of pocket sizes, from individual "orphan" systems, to constellations, and then 1-3 full size regions

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Signal11th
#18 - 2011-09-26 11:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


simplest way to do this is to go to NPC 0.0




This basically, if you want small alliances/corp to enter 0.0 just dramatically increase the size of NPC space and increase the amount of entry gates to a region. Very simple.
I find alot of the problems with EVE are usually because CCP have tried to be too clever with a certain dymanic and then spend the rest of their time trying to fix it.

The simplest answer is usually the best.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2011-09-26 16:15:01 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The simplest way to do this would be to embed some K-space constellations within the W-space region.


simplest way to do this is to go to NPC 0.0




This basically, if you want small alliances/corp to enter 0.0 just dramatically increase the size of NPC space and increase the amount of entry gates to a region. Very simple.
I find alot of the problems with EVE are usually because CCP have tried to be too clever with a certain dymanic and then spend the rest of their time trying to fix it.

The simplest answer is usually the best.


The history of Venal shows us that as soon as there's something of real value in NPC 0.0, it's no more immune to the superblobs than anywhere else.

We absolutely should have another 2-3 regions like Curse or Stain (large, lots of stations, lots of pockets, lots of agents), but they're not the answer for those who want to escape the big fleet lifestyle.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2011-09-26 19:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
High income w-space is more stagnant than null space (and that's saying something). Some of those systems are packed with carriers, making them impossible to invade. The more time goes by, the more w-space systems will be like that.

NPC null is okay in moderation. It is where bored, established players prey upon less established players. NPC null looks wonderful when large wars are going on, but is hellish the rest of the time.

To fix null:

1. Kill moon goo. It is a coalition builder, not a conflict driver.

2. Add regions. The more regions, the more people, the more fighting.

3. Kill the "I win" button. Supers should not be able to mop up sub cap fleets.

EDIT: It would be interesting to see small pockets of space that are outside super jump range of the rest of space. It would fix the "stack carriers" problem of w-space while keeping supers out of the mix. The viability of something like that depends entirely on how much income potential is there. Too much and it will be stagnant. Too little and no one capable of defending themselves will stay there.
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