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To Kill A Missionbird
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2012-02-23 16:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
... Or a Tengu, to be more precise. See, I am in Minmatar FW, and like to hop into Amarr missions and say hi to the people there. When it's a bomber, or a battleship, or even a Dramiel, I can handle it. However the Tengu (and to a lesser degree, its HML cousins the Drake and Cerberus) has me stumped.

I have considered a variety of ships, and none of them seem to offer very good chances of solo-ing a Tengu. They can either catch and tackle it but not kill it, or they can tackle and kill it, but can't catch it, or they can catch and kill it, but not without it killing them first. I am trying to find a T1 or T2 setup that can do this.

I have considered:


  • Sacrilege: probably has the best shot, but can't shut down Tengu tank, and its DPS is a bit low.
  • Curse: can shut down Tengu's tank and speed, but can't kill it before Tengu kills the Curse.
  • Vagabond (and all Minmatar T2): Tengu destroys the Kinetic hole.
  • Deimos (and Ishtar): decent shot if it catches the Tengu, but it would be a tankfest as they are resistant to each other's damage. Less so with Ishtar (Amarr drones, eh?) but still.
  • Lachesis (with damps and long point): No damage is funny.
  • Hurricane: likely can't destroy Tengu tank before it loses its poor HP.
  • Cyclone: with an anti-Kin resist and an active tank... Possibly?
  • Drake: slow, lacks good tackle, and has wrong damage type with little damage(at least until the "nerf").
  • Harbinger: Right damage type and good damage, but way too slow.
  • Armageddon/Typhoon/Dominix: heavy neuts can shut down Tengu, but can these BSes catch one?


This has always bothered me about HML boats. There is no clear "weakness" to exploit in them. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, though.

What do you think? How would you hunt a missioning Tengu down solo?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-23 16:59:46 UTC
Get a friend to either handle neuting or tackling. Lean more towards the nuet side though. Part of a Tengu's tank is it's afterburner. Put the nuets on him and the afterburner will turn off. Then you should be able to tackle him and the Tengu will die in no time.

If you must go solo you could try a nuet dominix. Bring some webbing drones to close the gap and neut him so he can't run his tank or warp out. Then close the gap, put a web on him and use your regular combat drones to finish the job.

You might also want to consider one of the Tier 3 battlecruisers. If you can get right in your optimal the heavy DPS will break the Tengu's tank. Most tengu's I've seen tank anywhere from 500 to 700 DPS. So with a Tier 3 BC overcoming that you might be able to kill him. The downside is that you will need to kill him before your thin layer of protection goes under.

Your best bet would to try and get some intel on this Tengu before hand. Perhaps use a cheap frigate to warp in and try to figure out as much as you can about the tengu.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#3 - 2012-02-23 17:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
I'm trying to go at this solo. Far more of a chance for the Tengu to get cocky and try to take me on that way. I suppose playing drone games with the Domi can work. What about a Typhoon, though? I don't have Gallente Battleship trained yet P

Tier3s could work, but the trouble with them is the Tengu is naturally resistant to the Talos' and Naga's damage types, so I would have to either use an Oracle (which would never hit the Tengu ever in tackle range), or a Tornado (which is paper-thin).

Maybe I'm just stuck with needing to use two people: one to rush in in an Enyo, Ishkur, Curse or something, and the other to follow up with the cavalry of high DPS.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-23 18:30:23 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I'm trying to go at this solo. Far more of a chance for the Tengu to get cocky and try to take me on that way. I suppose playing drone games with the Domi can work. What about a Typhoon, though? I don't have Gallente Battleship trained yet P

Tier3s could work, but the trouble with them is the Tengu is naturally resistant to the Talos' and Naga's damage types, so I would have to either use an Oracle (which would never hit the Tengu ever in tackle range), or a Tornado (which is paper-thin).

Maybe I'm just stuck with needing to use two people: one to rush in in an Enyo, Ishkur, Curse or something, and the other to follow up with the cavalry of high DPS.


I guess a Typhoon could work, though I don't know much at all about Minmatar battleships.

Well if you can get a super high alpha on the Tornado you may have a shot. If you can get through the shields the Tengu pilot will either have to shoot at you and die to mission NPCs or sentry guns (if he tries to warp to safety) or warp out right away.

I guess you would probably need another person to get the highest success rate. Another thing you could try is to possibly wait and see if the Tengu pilot went AFK thinking he is safe in his mission site. Then blow him up. Though if the pilot is remotely intelligent that won't happen.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Ana K
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-02-23 20:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana K
Help me understand some things. You said you're in faction warfare, so the Tengu pilot would also need to be in faction warfare for Caldari for you to legally attack him without CONCORD intervention, correct? I don't think you're trying to suicide gank, but others in your group may do just that if they help you and are not in FW?
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-02-23 20:29:23 UTC
I don't fly a nano phoon but with the split projectiles/missiles you could fit a nano phoon and use those extra highs for neuts. Not a half bad idea for doing this on the cheap. Curse is a logical choice for going after one of these, unfortunately as you pointed out, it doesn't really have the dps :(

This is when I start thinking of the Ashimmu....it's not cheap and it has its weaknesses, but still....

Solo Rifter since 2009
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-02-23 20:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Ana K wrote:
Help me understand some things. You said you're in faction warfare, so the Tengu pilot would also need to be in faction warfare for Caldari for you to legally attack him without CONCORD intervention, correct? I don't think you're trying to suicide gank, but others in your group may do just that if they help you and are not in FW?


Correct. Tengus are running FW missions and I hate it and I want them to die because they are dirty Amarr slaver dog scumsuckers.

E: Expanding on this. They use Tengus as they:

  1. are fast
  2. areable to passive (or active) tank Minmatar explosive damage
  3. do kinetic damage, which is the second best damage (after exp) to deal against Minmatar rats
  4. are not range-dependent
  5. are hard to catch (sometimes even covert)


In Minmatar FW missions, people usually use bombers and distance-tank, but that is unfeasible in Amarr missions because the Minmatar rats use missiles in addition to autos/arty.

Ahrieman wrote:
I don't fly a nano phoon but with the split projectiles/missiles you could fit a nano phoon and use those extra highs for neuts. Not a half bad idea for doing this on the cheap. Curse is a logical choice for going after one of these, unfortunately as you pointed out, it doesn't really have the dps :(

This is when I start thinking of the Ashimmu....it's not cheap and it has its weaknesses, but still....


Hmm.. Ashimmu. Neuts? Check! Tackle? Lol 90% webs. Check. DPS? Ehh... with the neuts acceptable. Speed and tank? Mutually exclusive for Ashimmu, and it doesn't rock at either of them. Not to mention it has low Kin resist (that's why I was looking at T2 ships a lot).

If the Tengu decides to not shoot me it might work, but I don't want to lose an Ashimmu finding out if this works, and don't know anyone who would be willing to have me test it on them on Sisi.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
#8 - 2012-02-23 20:55:00 UTC
Battle Rook? Gila? NOS equipment old school dual rep Ishtar?

Either way you need to web the Tengu and get them to slow down. Use mission agro to your advantage. By slowing them down you incresae the DPS they take from the stuff already shooting at them. That is really the key to taking out a missioning Tengu.
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#9 - 2012-02-23 20:56:45 UTC
Neuting Legion with drones subsystem?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-02-23 21:03:40 UTC
Kneebone wrote:
Battle Rook? Gila? NOS equipment old school dual rep Ishtar?

Either way you need to web the Tengu and get them to slow down. Use mission agro to your advantage. By slowing them down you incresae the DPS they take from the stuff already shooting at them. That is really the key to taking out a missioning Tengu.


Battle Rook might work... I need to get that Caldari Cruiser to V. It's really slow, though, and its damage is not all that. Plus, with 3 T2 Caldari jammers a max-skilled Rook only has 76% chance to jam every cycle -- one missed cycle and it's toast.

Gila wouldn't work because it would have less tank than the Tengu, with similar damage (though maybe with Praetor IIs it could do more?). Nos/rep Ishtar loses its tank as soon as the Tengu's cap runs down enough, resulting in a quick death... Or so I expect.

Sorry to sound like a jerk and shoot down ideas.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#11 - 2012-02-23 23:31:13 UTC
another Tengu?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2012-02-23 23:50:42 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
another Tengu?

ಠ_ಠ

And let me guess, I can use supercaps to kill supercaps, right?

Nam Dnilb wrote:
Neuting Legion with drones subsystem?


I suppose this would work better than the Curse because of the enormous extra tank. It doesn't have the Curse's speed, though. Maybe this would work, since Legion is underrated? At any rate, I can't fly any T3 cruisers yet, so I'm looking for something T1 or T2 to do.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Dalts
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#13 - 2012-02-24 00:11:56 UTC
Of course you are the enemy, etc etc blah blah, but I think the ship you are looking for is the Sleipnir...
Mike712
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#14 - 2012-02-24 00:15:06 UTC
Tempest is the obvious choice.

[Tempest, PvP Tempest]
Damage Control II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Vespa EC-600 x5
Warrior II x5


Fast locking, a bunch of DPS, ECM drones to break his lock, heavy neuts to cap him out and disable his prop mod/hardeners.

Regards, Mike712 The BattleClinic Team
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-24 00:22:43 UTC
Command ship best choice.
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-02-24 00:27:17 UTC
Kill them with irony, use a blaster Tengu.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#17 - 2012-02-24 04:00:29 UTC
Typhoon, Tempest, or armor-cane. I've done it with all three. Mission tengus are no problem if they're active tanked with two nuets on them (medium or heavy), and a buffered tengu will still die to a Tempest before you pop. For the phoon/armor-cane, toss on a kinetic hardener, overheat it, and you've got a stress-free kill on buffered or active tanked tengu.

Catching wise, fit disruptor for initial point (you've got ganglinks right?) and then double webs on cane or phoon (tempest is fine with point/tank/cap booster and nuets because you can keep up fine and want to hold range to avoid tracking problems anyway) - run with AC's on the phoon for proper damage application and some Praetors (or Acolytes in the cane, isn't it nice that Amarr drones are good for something?) and you've got a dead Tengu.

HM ships can be annoying because there's not *obvious* counter,but throwing on some damage specific hardners/nuets/and gank is usually enough to drop them with no problems.

loki energon
Anasazi Wanderratter's Social Club
#18 - 2012-02-24 04:21:27 UTC
other than double neut, web phoon, which is a great idea BTW. my, vote goes to nighthawk its dmg bonus is universal, allowing you to hit the EM hole, speed and tank all around kick ass ship.

kill em all.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#19 - 2012-02-24 06:31:05 UTC
If you cannot do it in a 2x med neut Cane, you are doing it wrong, and it's unlikely you will be able to do it in Tempests and/or Phoons.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Wildest
Blockheads Corp
#20 - 2012-02-24 07:22:43 UTC
Try a Loki with 1 web ..it can kill a tengu easily if flown right...not at home atm so cant provide with a fit ..but i'm sure u can find quite a few on battleclinic
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