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Why Fly Gallente?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#81 - 2012-02-24 19:17:44 UTC
Voith wrote:

So, gallente are COMPLETELY DOMINANT in small gang pvp, but you run into a constant mix in Low Sec.


Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.

Quote:

Pro-tip when bullshitting: Make sure you're consistent.

Then why are you fitting blasters on a caldari ship? Could there be fundamental difference between Caldari and Gallente ships that make them better at using blasters? If so isn't it dumb that gallente get out classed in their own racial weapon type?


I'm fitting blasters to the Harpy because the Blarpy is just ridiculously overpowered - more so than most other blaster ships. The odd one off doesn't change the expected racial meta.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#82 - 2012-02-24 19:20:42 UTC
Liang's Harpy makes me shop in Hek. It's very sad. ShockedP
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#83 - 2012-02-24 19:21:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.


Don't oversimplify, now. Gallente are hard-pressed to get a decent sniping setup, or to tank obnoxious amounts of damage, and nano-setups are hard to pull off on Gallente ships.

Also neither the Incursus nor the Tristan really replace the Rifter. P

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#84 - 2012-02-24 19:54:58 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.


Don't oversimplify, now. Gallente are hard-pressed to get a decent sniping setup, or to tank obnoxious amounts of damage, and nano-setups are hard to pull off on Gallente ships.

Also neither the Incursus nor the Tristan really replace the Rifter. P


I'm willing to concede that the other races (including Caldari with Rails) does sniping better, but come on man, you can't tell me that Gallente doesn't nano or tank well. That's just ridiculous.

As to the Tristan and Incursus replacing the Rifter... I present to you much frigate pwnage (including Tristans): http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-02-25 06:25:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[quote=Liang Nuren]Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.


As to the Tristan and Incursus replacing the Rifter... I present to you much frigate pwnage (including Tristans): http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang


Slicers who dive <4km range and still use scorh... You can't be serious. Dual LADAR Jam on Merlin... Did he know what was the enemy or did he expect Rifter/Dramiel enemies only?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#86 - 2012-02-25 06:54:03 UTC
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[quote=Liang Nuren]Two reasons: inertia (people like you keep thinking they suck) and having not trained them up.


As to the Tristan and Incursus replacing the Rifter... I present to you much frigate pwnage (including Tristans): http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang


Slicers who dive <4km range and still use scorh... You can't be serious. Dual LADAR Jam on Merlin... Did he know what was the enemy or did he expect Rifter/Dramiel enemies only?


You're welcome to bring a Slicer to Amamake and see how willingly those Slicers dived to 4km. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-02-25 17:58:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm pretty sure we all know that Tanya Powers won't be satisfied with Gallente until they're the best at everything.

-Liang


you are just kidding me and I accept, you know perfectly weel all I want is that Gallente and Hybrids aren't the last choice but something you don't get expell of the fleet because you bring it, nor 0/ridiculous reimbursement program because you fly gallente, neither *wth the time you target shït in your lol rails crap the target is already dead, go get an ibis with a web you'll be more useful*

You can't say I'm not aware of some benefits, you know perfectly well that small rails/blasters are completely FOTOM now witch is not what was asked, meanwhile med/large rails are still sub par of everything and galletne hulls stil have far too many drawbacks, T2 ships need a deep work to become viable options.


I don't want gallente to become fotom race, I fly canes, maelstroms, drakes T3 calamari/matar/gallente why should I complain if it's not for the greater good of the game and everyone else than my self?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#88 - 2012-02-25 18:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Gallente + Rails are a good choice once you get over 150km. The fact that sniping at that range is a problem has more to do with on grid probing then with Gallente or Rails. "Long Range" at 100km means alhpa is popular.

Edit: I used to hate sniper fleets in my Arty Tempest when shots were being exchanged at 200km.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-02-25 18:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Gallente + Rails are a good choice once you get over 150km. The fact that sniping at that range is a problem has more to do with on grid probing then with Gallente or Rails. "Long Range" at 100km means alhpa is popular.

Edit: I used to hate sniper fleets in my Arty Tempest when shots were being exchanged at 200km.


Well honestly, would you choose a sniper rails Megathron for +150km or Tornado that can make triple Megathron alpha strike at 242km, half sign radius and 1600m/s cap stable when mega caps out just by shooting (best dps conf) ?

I still have one sniper rails Mega and prepared to pinch butts at 240km with no tracking issues, but it's more about make those run off the gate than really kill one of them unless I'm very very lucky guy. At same range with alpha Tornado the Sabre goes pouf in one single shot, Cynabal 3 shots at worst (he will warp out first) and with +25% tracking on shortest range ammo 1 shot at the dram at 100km is either he pop either I gtfo, all I can tell you is that ranis at this range go pouf with 0 tracking issues.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2012-02-25 20:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Tanya Powers wrote:

Well honestly, would you choose a sniper rails Megathron for +150km or Tornado that can make triple Megathron alpha strike at 242km, half sign radius and 1600m/s cap stable when mega caps out just by shooting (best dps conf) ?

I still have one sniper rails Mega and prepared to pinch butts at 240km with no tracking issues, but it's more about make those run off the gate than really kill one of them unless I'm very very lucky guy. At same range with alpha Tornado the Sabre goes pouf in one single shot, Cynabal 3 shots at worst (he will warp out first) and with +25% tracking on shortest range ammo 1 shot at the dram at 100km is either he pop either I gtfo, all I can tell you is that ranis at this range go pouf with 0 tracking issues.


I have two comments:
- Please post these fits you keep talking about. You claim that the Tornado has "triple the Mega's alpha" but seem to neglect the fact that you have to be at over 1x falloff. This means that your 6550 volley drops to ~2620 expected. I'd like to see your fits to verify what you're saying.
- Alpha's nice and all but its not the only thing in combat - in fact there are lots of combat situations where DPS is more important than volley damage. Those are the kinds of situation where Gallente are going to be successful, and asking for them to be so much more successful that their DPS overtakes the advantages of volley damage would be like asking for rail Taloses to drop out 1500 DPS at range. Lets keep things within the realm of reasonable - because so far it seems like you want Gallente to pwn at small gangs, pwn at large gangs, pwn at fleets, pwn at sniping, pwn at... well, everything.

-Liang

Ed: And a third comment, to your post responding to me: If your FC kicks you out of the fleet because you brought Gallente, maybe he's right and maybe he's wrong. There's times and places for all ships and thats ok. If you want to fly Gallente, fly in a meta that supports it - because that meta does exist. Almost 30% of the real (non-shuttle, non-noobship, non-pod) kills in Eve are in low sec and Gallente ******* dominates in low sec right now. Furthermore, Gallente does fine in small gang 0.0 fleets too ... and in high sec. And even wormhole.

The only place they don't do well is blobs. And if that's your problem... stop blobbing.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-02-25 20:33:21 UTC
Its just a matter of scale.

Gallente are great when you can sit in station and wait for your targets to come to you scouted three jumps out. They are pretty crappy when you can't choose the ship to counter the opposing fleet. Gallente have to many counters. Gallente can work in "blob" warfare, but the load on your probers is FAR FAR above a normal tengu/hellcat/mael fleet. They don't have the tank of the amarr the mobility of the tengu or the alpha of the maels.

Not to mention plated up Megas are ******* slow and don't hold a candle to Abbaddons outside 20km

So its a matter of application.

...so that is fine Gallente aren't that hot a null fleet warfare.

Lowsec is a different environment, completely different environment, particularly around Amamake. Your mileage may vary if you live there, I've been back and forth across that system in my experience you roll in there with equal numbers, you won't see a tic unless you are fighting someone else than its a Mach or Tempest at 200km.

Otherwise you get a bait ship on the gate and swarmed by superior numbers........but that's not blobbing amirite.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#92 - 2012-02-25 21:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Onictus wrote:
Its just a matter of scale.

Gallente are great when you can sit in station and wait for your targets to come to you scouted three jumps out. They are pretty crappy when you can't choose the ship to counter the opposing fleet. Gallente have to many counters. Gallente can work in "blob" warfare, but the load on your probers is FAR FAR above a normal tengu/hellcat/mael fleet. They don't have the tank of the amarr the mobility of the tengu or the alpha of the maels.

Not to mention plated up Megas are ******* slow and don't hold a candle to Abbaddons outside 20km

So its a matter of application.

...so that is fine Gallente aren't that hot a null fleet warfare


Yep, long winded way of saying the underlined. And frankly, thats ok.

Quote:

Lowsec is a different environment, completely different environment, particularly around Amamake. Your mileage may vary if you live there, I've been back and forth across that system in my experience you roll in there with equal numbers, you won't see a tic unless you are fighting someone else than its a Mach or Tempest at 200km.

Otherwise you get a bait ship on the gate and swarmed by superior numbers........but that's not blobbing amirite.


You're right, all we do is blob:
- http://vimeo.com/34665420
- http://vimeo.com/35131824
- http://vimeo.com/35642474
- http://vimeo.com/37092811
- http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g
- http://youtu.be/RVh3crlVdwE
- http://youtu.be/-36e6zDd3dU

I should mention that Amamake Fun V will be coming out Soon(tm), and I'm reasonably positive it'll be the last of the series. So who knows - maybe you'll be right about Heretic Army again Soon(tm) though. Hard to know whats happening in this wild place called low sec!

Furthermore, most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".

-Liang

Ed: Also, someone that flies in 100+ man fleets calling Heretics blobbers is pretty ******* rich.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-02-25 21:08:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".


*citation needed
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#94 - 2012-02-25 21:11:14 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".


*citation needed


http://twitter.com/ccp_diagoras

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-02-25 21:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Liang Nuren wrote:
OfBalance wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".


*citation needed


http://twitter.com/ccp_diagoras

-Liang


****, I had to scroll down ages to find it.

Quote:
Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you


(Null)1135046 > 705378(Low).

429668 more kills in nullsec in 2011, by that count.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#96 - 2012-02-25 21:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
OfBalance wrote:

****, I had to scroll down ages to find it.

Quote:
Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you


(Null)1135046 > 705378(Low).

(Yes, it's hard to spot, but this first number has seven digits.)


He's posted several variations on the same theme, with roughly the same percentages. It basically boils down to low sec being the bloodiest per capita place in the game by a very significant margin.

-Liang

Ed: Nice ninja edit. Note that's not what I actually said: I said that 0.0 didn't have the majority of kills in the game - and it doesn't. And just to be clear 1135046 / 2,395,960 = ~47%. Clearly 53% (most) of the kills happened elsewhere.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-02-25 21:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Liang Nuren wrote:
OfBalance wrote:

****, I had to scroll down ages to find it.

Quote:
Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you


(Null)1135046 > 705378(Low).

(Yes, it's hard to spot, but this first number has seven digits.)


He's posted several variations on the same theme, with roughly the same percentages. It basically boils down to low sec being the bloodiest per capita place in the game by a very significant margin.

-Liang


Well of course there's more than one way to measure it, but you didn't give me a specific entry and that was the first entry with nullsec and lowsec together that I found (admittedly not trying hard).

There's no indicator that lowsec is a candyland, but I haven't come across an entry that suggests what you said initially. Subjective quality of kills not withstanding. And honestly dragging through more of that page makes me want to punch kittens and puppy dogs. I hate twitter.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Note that's not what I actually said: I said that 0.0 didn't have the majority of kills in the game - and it doesn't. And just to be clear 1135046 / 2,395,960 = ~47%. Clearly 53% (most) of the kills happened elsewhere.


Fair enough.

But it is fair to say that, as a subset of the total kills, nullsec holds the most. Indeed it has more kills than any other two groups combined save lowsec and highsec, which I don't think share much relationship to one another aside from some FW overflow. Nullsec, lowsec, and wspace, however, might be said to have some fairly significant undocumented overlap.

vOv numbers
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#98 - 2012-02-25 21:41:44 UTC
OfBalance wrote:

Quote:
Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you


There's no indicator that lowsec is a candyland, but I haven't come across an entry that suggests what you said initially. Subjective quality of kills not withstanding. And honestly dragging through more of that page makes me want to punch kittens and puppy dogs. I hate twitter.


Here's what I said initially:
Liang Nuren wrote:
most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".


By the numbers: 423447 + 705378 + 1135046 + 132089 = 2,395,960
0.0 kill pct = 1135046 / 2,395,960 = 0.47373328436200938246047513314079
The rest of eve = 423447 + 705378 + 132089 = 1,260,914
The rest of eve kill pct = 1,260,914 / 2,395,960 = 0.52626671563799061753952486685921

From this we can conclude:
- Only 47% of the "real kills" happen in Eve. This is less than the required ~50.01% to be most.
- 52.6% of the "real kills" in Eve happen outside of low sec. This is more than the required ~50.01% to be most.

So no, I said exactly what I meant. You just weren't listening.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#99 - 2012-02-25 21:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
OfBalance wrote:

Fair enough.

But it is fair to say that, as a subset of the total kills, nullsec holds the most. Indeed it has more kills than any other two groups combined save lowsec and highsec, which I don't think share much relationship to one another aside from some FW overflow. Nullsec, lowsec, and wspace, however, might be said to have some fairly significant undocumented overlap.

vOv numbers


Nonsense. I'd argue that empire and and WH space gets more overlap than 0.0 and WH space. Go check out his tweets about WH systems with kills. ;-) Also, I wasn't arguing that 0.0 isn't important - I was saying its not even where most of the PVP happens in game.

Now to stear the conversation back on track: Gallente is without question in almost perfect meta outside of null sec. Thus, Gallente is perfectly fine where most of the PVP happens.

-Liang

Ed: Also, there is an indicator that low sec is The Promised Land of PVP - 30% of the real kills in the game happening by ~8% of the player base? Hellll yeah.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-02-25 21:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Liang Nuren wrote:
OfBalance wrote:

Quote:
Kills by sec group, 2011, no pods/rookies etc, FIXED: High 423447, Low 705378, Null 1135046, WH 132089. Not ignoring you


There's no indicator that lowsec is a candyland, but I haven't come across an entry that suggests what you said initially. Subjective quality of kills not withstanding. And honestly dragging through more of that page makes me want to punch kittens and puppy dogs. I hate twitter.


Here's what I said initially:
Liang Nuren wrote:
most of the real kills (non shuttle, pod, noob ship) in Eve are done outside of the confines of that wonderfully blobby environment you 0.0 blobbers claim is the "end game".


By the numbers: 423447 + 705378 + 1135046 + 132089 = 2,395,960
0.0 kill pct = 1135046 / 2,395,960 = 0.47373328436200938246047513314079
The rest of eve = 423447 + 705378 + 132089 = 1,260,914
The rest of eve kill pct = 1,260,914 / 2,395,960 = 0.52626671563799061753952486685921

From this we can conclude:
- Only 47% of the "real kills" happen in Eve. This is less than the required ~50.01% to be most.
- 52.6% of the "real kills" in Eve happen outside of low sec. This is more than the required ~50.01% to be most.

So no, I said exactly what I meant. You just weren't listening.

-Liang


I think most of the kills in highsec aren't what you would consider "real kills," either. Of course I could be mistaken. I don't know if we're trying to account for. What is the topic again? Lol

Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Also, there is an indicator that low sec is The Promised Land of PVP - 30% of the real kills in the game happening by ~8% of the player base? Hellll yeah.


Didn't think of that, probably the best counter-argument to be made.