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Null sec deserts
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Zhade Lezte
#61 - 2012-02-23 12:04:49 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Believe it or not Zhade, another thing I know I'm going to get hate for is that I think Wormholes are actually an answer, think about it, it's another way for small alliances or corporations to gain access to 0.0 space if they can't go toe to toe with the big alliances just yet. They can harvest their own rare ore etc. and get what they need to fight them gathering strength, then when they're strong enough they can go and pick some fights.

I think we should actually increase the number of wormhole systems and maybe even the size, I really like the exploration in EVE and think it's what a sandbox should be really about, I think if we increase the number of wormholes though maybe a good thing to do would be to put more in low sec, to give people a real reason to go there rather than just to play tag with each other until one of them gets bored.

Whatever happens, 0.0 needs a serious change, I'd say it's the attitude of the alliances that needs changing, but I'm realistic, we just need to change the gameplay so the blob doesn't win anymore.

p.s. I propose AoE self-destruct freighters loaded with explosives that can take out entire fleets :P


It's definitely true that wormholes are a well-made addition to the game for smaller alliances and corporations to live in null security space.

The interesting thing about smallholding was that as it kind of operates in a similar way to how wormholes allow small groups a chance to enjoy 0.0. IIRC, the thread discussion basically had an idea of small mini-stations that could maybe hold 2-3 of your own personal ships set up in a safespot. They could only be probed down when someone was actually logged on at one of them (presumably by probing down the ship, not the smallhold). When located they had fairly low HP (so it wasn't a tedious structure grind), but also had a fairly long reinforcement timer to allow the smallholders to evacuate.

I'm actually not sure if they should be quite as hard to find as mentioned above, but it definitely illustrates how people can have a small stake in 0.0 without being entirely at mercy of the blob while not adding another boring structure shot to the game.

On "blobbing" I'm all for gameplay that rewards organized fleets over disorganized ones but I don't see how anyone can argue that, all other things equal, a larger fleet should lose to a smaller fleet. And while no one ever states that desire outright, that is often what people push for out of a simple desire to win. On organized vs. disorganized fleets, frankly such gameplay already exists to an extent: 2-3 bomber squads can easily annihilate a blob of ships foolishly clumping together. I've been part of that on both the giving and receiving end.

If you've got more concrete ideas I'd be interested in hearing them, but despite your intentions an AoE self-destruct freighter sounds less like an anti-blobbing measure and more like an I-win button. It takes skills at both probing and setting up a warp in to get a successful bombing run on a defensively bubbled fleet, it doesn't take much skill at all to warp a freighter in and blow up everyone on grid. This is basically why AOE titan doomsdays don't exist anymore while bombers remain the way they are in the game.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-02-23 12:06:19 UTC
Oh hey it's the Godfathers.

Force projection is something that some people point to as a problem, but it cuts both ways. Most of the people who complain about it haven't thought it through. Yes, jump bridges and capital ships have made it easy for alliances to move people and ships around. This is a good thing. Jump bridges and capital ships have made it easy for the average player to move people and ships around. It means that, for everyone involved, there is less of the mundane in EVE. No-one likes moving stuff around. The most boring bit about fleet fights in EVE is getting to them.

Force projection cuts both ways. We're up in Dek and, as you say, Fountain is sparsely populated as a result. But the same force projection that allows us to move up there with relative ease also enables any alliance to attack our space fairly simply. It conveys both benefits and risks, and thus is a good thing.

It's also mentioning that epic space battles are the selling point of eve. It's not like they'd stop if you made force projection harder - if goons were under attack we'd just take gates up there. Not having JBs or capital ships wouldn't stop this force projection, it would just become much more tedious for the players. They want the fights, and enabling players to reach these fights easily is simply good game design.

It's also mentioning that the same force projection that you decry allows you to have your own campaigns away from fountain for :goodfites: on whatever scale you choose. But you don't want to do that. I don't know why.

You're totally wrong on force projection. What you should be complaining about is coalitions, as these concentrate the focus of warfare. This means that, at any given time, only a relatively small portion of space is threatened, but it is threatened by an enormous pile of angry neckbeards

I'd also like to point out the irony of you talking about empires having definite borders when you operate entirely from NPC sov, which makes it practically impossible to have borders as it introduces far too many threat vectors. If you're serious about it borders then you've also got to be serious about having a mechanic to support evictions from NPC null. And, unfortunately for you, if that ever happened we'd curb stomp you in a day.

And that's my final point: You have a decent record of ganking our ratters and mission runners, and you've got some expensive kills to show for it. But, at a high level, you are an irrelevancy. I'm sorry that you don't understand that. What you're looking for is some change to the game to make yourselves relevant. That's not going to happen, and it's not because of force projection or borders, or any other bullshit. It's because you are too small to be a threat to us, and that's not going to change no matter how hard you make it to get from A to B.
Valei Khurelem
#63 - 2012-02-23 12:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
On "blobbing" I'm all for gameplay that rewards organized fleets over disorganized ones but I don't see how anyone can argue that, all other things equal, a larger fleet should lose to a smaller fleet.


I'm not saying that a larger fleet 'should' lose to a smaller fleet, I'm saying that they should be able to lose to a smaller fleet, look at history, even now we have America, one of the most powerful nations in the world getting their arses handed to them by a bunch of men who only have turbans, AK47's and RPGs because they know the area really well and use hit and run tactics to take out their enemy. This is why I get so dumbfounded when I see the opposite happening in EVE, when you get caught in a stargate unless you're as fast as a shuttle or have a cloaking device fitted you're screwed, there's no chance of even properly running away in this game.

So far the only PvP I have experienced is of EVE being a simple minded gank fest, even in Counter Strike Source, if I hit players from behind or outflank them I'm going to completely slaughter the team. Yet in EVE all that will happen is I shoot at them a couple of times and do a miniscule amount of damage, then I get ganked because the player has a tech 2 ship with 3000 points on their shield or armour.

The problem with my ideas is they're almost certainly going to **** people off though granted it's only going to be people who like ganking as a game element, for instance, I had that Warp Disruptor Countermeasure thread, the fact is the counters to electronic warfare like warp bubbles and such are rubbish. They've been nerfed to hell while the warp bubbles and warp disruptors have hardly any penalty to them and that means of course you can freely gank people without any repercussions.

Either penalties need to be introduced to electronic warfare, or the counter-measures to electronic warfare need some serious buffing, I think that will at least temporarily fix the problem and make things a bit more interesting, while we think about what we can add next that's more realistic. You can't have a counter-measure with ridiculous penalties like massively reducing the targeting range and then electronic warfare with no downside at all.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Rock Moss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2012-02-23 13:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rock Moss
Valei Khurelem wrote:
:words:.


So far I haven't seen anything useful from your posts. You are inexperienced in null and pvp and don't think things through.

So in your roams you found some guys camping gates? Like I said in my previous post (did you read it?) its likely non-sov holders camping gates for kills, not the alliance defending its territory. Check evemaps for the systems you travel through to see who holds sov there, or look in the top left corner below the system name.

Gatecamps are easy to get around in something fast and agile, otherwise you need to be careful, which is what nullsec is all about. Allowing easier travel defeats the danger of null, and makes it harder for any sort of pvp to happen, consentual or otherwise.

Large fleets lose to smaller ones all the time. Simply having a larger fleet does not guarantee victory. Certain fleet compositions have counters (if you brought shiptype X and they brought Y which counters X they have an advantage), and skillfull FCing with warpins etc will win over larger fleets. It has happened and continues to happen. But you wouldn't know this because you lack experience.

No-pvp zone around gates and stations? Goodbye pvp everywhere - null, low, and highsec. There are few places players run into each other other than belts, so your pubbie-pvp method would completely kill off lowsec and turn null into 100% station games. I don't even know why I responded to this.

If CCP increased the amount of nullsec space by 100 times what it is now, you'd likely get a lot of what you're looking for: vast empty space that nobody visits and that you can take sov on, then get bored because theres nothing to do. It would add to exploration, ooh look another system! But after a dozen of those with nobody there you'd lose interest and pod yourself.

*edit: typo
Valei Khurelem
#65 - 2012-02-23 13:58:32 UTC
Quote:
Check evemaps for the systems you travel through to see who holds sov there, or look in the top left corner below the system name.


So far I've noticed you're incapable of reading.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-02-23 14:26:39 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
My issue is a little broader than that, but keep the blinkers on, it stops you having to think about bigger things in the game.


Or you could grow a pair get new players, train them, take sov, offer them logistic support like JB's that ask a lot of work and then show how interesting you are instead of a brainless crying bird asking for candies.

This is funny, one side you've got nerds dropping 200 titans/supers if you dare to show up in local with an Ibis and on the other crybabies crying because small entities trying to settle somewhere get tired of being harassed from every direction and specially from pussies living in NPC space that risk 0 assets loss and making gazillions of isk with omega implants +ganks and and alike.

You should leave this game and go play something else. You're useless to everyone in whatever region you live and to your own corp mates at first.

So says Science and Trade Institutes best poster.... Roll Funny you call other people names, and can't post on your main...

I mean, I don't have an iron in this fire, 0.0 (in it's current configuration) has 0.0% interest for me, but to come out with the bilge water you just spewed on everyone is redic to the max if you can't even pony up and post on your main, instead of some lame azz npc alt...

just my 0.02 isk...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#67 - 2012-02-23 14:59:42 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Then you have titans, bring a stupid cloacky alt light a cyno, jump titan logofski.

One has to coordinate dozens of people dedicated to this simple task that is refuel POS/JB's, so they can defend their frontiers vs serious attacks and the other only has to send hundreds or thousands (yes thousands) of players to system "x" join the Titan, bridge, logofki titan.

WTF? -no one see a problem in this stuff? -mobile JB, clone vat, giga gun, xl gun cruiser sniper better than battleships (!), hangar.

Well, honestly I think people don't use the clone vats in Titans....


But clearly the cost of titans balances them, tracking is perfectly fine and so is logging off, haven't you heard?

They're the spaceswords of ~elite pvp~ the most e-honoureable people who would never stoop to using something that's overpowered just to gain an advantage.

Titan Bowling forever!

P.S. It's an exploit now, don't do it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Plyn
Uncharted.
#68 - 2012-02-23 16:54:46 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
That said, I think there are things we can improve in EVE. But not to change the whole game to cater to an instant gratification playstyle. That is just not EVE.


If you don't want instant gratification you should be getting a bloody job, not playing a game, it's that simple, this is what games are about and why MMORPGs as a genre almost always suck.

Dev 1: Lets put 10000000 points of HP on our NPCs and make them nearly invinicible so players are forced to shoot at them forever

Dev 2: Sounds great! Should we put acceleration gates in too to make them have to spend money on afterburners/mwd's and wait longer just to get through one mission?

Dev 1: Lets do real time training and make it last for days and days, they shouldn't make any progress on it if they're unsubscribed!

Dev 2: That's brilliant! We can make the training last for years and they'll have to stay subscribed if they want to fly titans!

Dev 1: Perfect! Let's do all of it and they'll be forced to stay subscribed for ages if they want to make any progress! We'll make millions! We won't even have to program any new content or gameplay either!

Dev 1 and Dev 2: Why is everyone leaving?


I'm telling you, if games companies could get away with forcing players to stay subscribed they would, in fact when SWG was dying SOE tried charging my account even after it had been cancelled because they were hoping to scam a bit of cash off us hoping that I wouldn't notice.


Spent a lot of time trying to back you up in this thread... Now it sounds like your issue is with CCP and MMOs in general, rather than force projection, structure grinding, and the ability for new startups in the nullsec arena....

If you think the game sucks so much, and you have this many problems with the way it is designed, I guess I have to suggest that you look for entertainment elsewhere Ugh.... God I really hate to be the guy who says that
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#69 - 2012-02-23 17:56:03 UTC
So to summarize:

Large entities established in null: "We like force projection as it is, flying through space sucks. And big fights rock!"

Small entities wanting to get into null: "Force projection is too easy, you crush us with no risk. We like fights where we actually stand a chance!"
Chiggy W
Hard-Luck Industries
#70 - 2012-02-23 18:24:40 UTC
Came expecting cheesecake, found another make Eve fair thread.

Sad
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-02-23 18:26:46 UTC
Remove local, remove structure mails and revamp the directional scanner.
Valei Khurelem
#72 - 2012-02-23 19:01:42 UTC
Quote:
Spent a lot of time trying to back you up in this thread... Now it sounds like your issue is with CCP and MMOs in general, rather than force projection, structure grinding, and the ability for new startups in the nullsec arena....


That is something that is actually wrong with the entire genre, it isn't just EVE or CCP, I think there are clearly people in CCP trying, but there are also ones that just want to code in useless and annoying timesinks designed to make players kill time rather than play the actual game and have fun.

As far as I'm concerned timesinks are a lazy and half assed method devs use when they don't want to code in gameplay content, wormholes were easily the best expansion I've seen from CCP yet, whoever made that idea needs to be put in management and be making all the gameplay decisions because that kind of thing is what a sandbox should be about.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-02-23 19:41:33 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local, remove structure mails and revamp the directional scanner.


or just ban marlona sky who makes horrible suggestions all the time

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#74 - 2012-02-23 20:33:02 UTC
There's that bully defense again.
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#75 - 2012-02-23 20:39:28 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Why should space feel large?

Okay, space is big. But when I log into EVE, I want to play, not spend 3 hours traveling.


with your jump bridge network? lol that would never happen. in fact you could probably make a tour of duty across all of eve in 1 hour without any bridging or wormholing.

a jump a minute isn't too bad. I think CCP should add a couple more NULL regions and reduce the LY capacity of Jump Bridges for all CAP ships and POS bridges. a small tweak to those could make New Eden feel a bit larger. Distance from your enemies should provide some added safety.
Calfis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-02-23 20:54:06 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
Spent a lot of time trying to back you up in this thread... Now it sounds like your issue is with CCP and MMOs in general, rather than force projection, structure grinding, and the ability for new startups in the nullsec arena....


That is something that is actually wrong with the entire genre, it isn't just EVE or CCP, I think there are clearly people in CCP trying, but there are also ones that just want to code in useless and annoying timesinks designed to make players kill time rather than play the actual game and have fun.

As far as I'm concerned timesinks are a lazy and half assed method devs use when they don't want to code in gameplay content, wormholes were easily the best expansion I've seen from CCP yet, whoever made that idea needs to be put in management and be making all the gameplay decisions because that kind of thing is what a sandbox should be about.


I like how the themepark crowd always label any sort of effort as a time sink.
Gay Babby
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-02-24 05:56:11 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
SilentMajority wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
Red Templar wrote:
I do not understand the problem. The alliance went to war, to have fun, to shoot things. How does that stiffles the game? Should they be only able to sit in their own space and entertain you guys?
Please specify and expand what is the problem and how you see it. And please provide a solution, in your opinion ofc, otherwise this discussion is worthless.


Ok, I'll try.

*snip*

I hope that helps set out what I'm trying to convey?


Oh no! Does the big bad pirate not like it when we can drop 100 people on your head without any notice? This is what you get for living next to the third largest alliance in the game. If you'd like, we can move TEST into wy- for a few weeks and see how your alliance membership holds up. Then you won't have to worry about big bad TEST and power projection; we'll be right in system!


There's the standard "Someone is criticizing something that is to our benefit. Quick, start acting like bullies!" response.

Truth is, OP is raising an excellent point. If a group can project the vast majority of their force anywhere on the map at the drop of a hat, then the entire game gets reduced to one of "he with the biggest fleet wins", which is an issue that does get brought up here and there...

Force projection abilities are too strong as they are. The largest fleet can control as much territory as that quick force projection reaches, which right now is everything. Even if you're cleverly attacked at 5 different locations right across the map, as the largest fleet you can just pop off each invading force one at a time in quick succession.

You're never forced to split up.


When TEST was deployed to provi and curse and vale and geminate for 4 months, we had serious issues defending our space. We'd struggle to find 50 people to join a money moon defense op. GF could SBU systems, reinforce moons, and when we formed to defend they could nearly match us on numbers. We beat them a couple times they beat us a few times. Now that we are back home we can once again drop 200 dudes on G0dfathers and they are all butthurt about that.

Sounds like that projection of power you were talking about is a myth.
Gay Babby
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-02-24 06:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gay Babby
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
On "blobbing" I'm all for gameplay that rewards organized fleets over disorganized ones but I don't see how anyone can argue that, all other things equal, a larger fleet should lose to a smaller fleet.


I'm not saying that a larger fleet 'should' lose to a smaller fleet, I'm saying that they should be able to lose to a smaller fleet, look at history, even now we have America, one of the most powerful nations in the world getting their arses handed to them by a bunch of men who only have turbans, AK47's and RPGs because they know the area really well and use hit and run tactics to take out their enemy. This is why I get so dumbfounded when I see the opposite happening in EVE, when you get caught in a stargate unless you're as fast as a shuttle or have a cloaking device fitted you're screwed, there's no chance of even properly running away in this game.



If you call utterly destroying the old iraq forces and government, losing 4500 soldiers in trade for 100,000 iraqi soldiers + insurgents. (not counting civilian deaths caused by both the US and by terrorists(who cause the vast majority of them)), occupying iraq for 8 years, installing a puppet government, and mostly pacifying the country a defeat I am curious to see what sort of eve online battles you would call defeats or victories.

I mean that would be like -A- losing all their space to PL, losing a giant number of ships, losing some supercapitals and then a new alliance is installed in -A-s old space who are subservient to PL and then -A- calling the whole thing a victory.

You'd be laughed off the forums.
Soporo
#79 - 2012-02-24 06:23:28 UTC
3 times more space entirely, twice as much NPC space with a buncha stations, sub-cap allowed only. Won't (quite) go so far as to say bring back WT0, but....that would be heaven, I'd be (and a sh*tton of other folks) all over that.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#80 - 2012-02-24 06:25:19 UTC
Gay Babby wrote:
I mean that would be like -A- losing all their space to PL, losing a giant number of ships, losing some supercapitals and then a new alliance is installed in -A-s old space who are subservient to PL and then -A- calling the whole thing a victory.

You'd be laughed off the forums.

White Noise. defeated us in branch, right?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?