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Null sec deserts
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#41 - 2012-02-23 03:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Man, ~goodfites~ just come to us.

Rock Moss wrote:
Some folks ITT seem to think that 0.0 alliances guard their borders and investigate every neut in system or something. These folks obviously have not been part of such an alliance. Neuts roam null space all the time, border systems are not camped by the alliances 24/7, they don't care, too much :effort:

Gangs hostile to the all powerful nullsec alliance will often freely move around the alliances systems, even when the alliance isn't deployed. The invading force gets to choose when they show up and in what fleet comp, and the owning alliance has to actually care enough to form up and fight, which depends how much they want to stop ratting, or sometimes they're all too drunk =P

That's so bloody true. The enemy seems more interested in camping the gates to our capital than we are. Sheesh.

I think people imagine there are standing fleets in POSes everywhere. We have better things to do (like mine, get it?)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-02-23 03:31:04 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
My issue is a little broader than that, but keep the blinkers on, it stops you having to think about bigger things in the game.


Or you could grow a pair get new players, train them, take sov, offer them logistic support like JB's that ask a lot of work and then show how interesting you are instead of a brainless crying bird asking for candies.

This is funny, one side you've got nerds dropping 200 titans/supers if you dare to show up in local with an Ibis and on the other crybabies crying because small entities trying to settle somewhere get tired of being harassed from every direction and specially from pussies living in NPC space that risk 0 assets loss and making gazillions of isk with omega implants +ganks and and alike.

You should leave this game and go play something else. You're useless to everyone in whatever region you live and to your own corp mates at first.



Godfathers whine about everything get used to it.

They aren't likely to get any decent numbers because most USTZ corps aren't interested in joining a RUSTZ alliance. They complain about not getting fights out of TEST, but most of TEST is US or Western EU which means we are mostly either asleep or at work when godfathers is in their prime time (RUS prime would be early morning for most US players).

If Godfathers wants fights they should relocate to npc space near where the RUSTZ alliances live (Curse or GW come to mind)
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#43 - 2012-02-23 03:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Nikuno wrote:

As I said, it's not about the 'goodfights' even. It just isn't good for the game when a large enough powerbloc can dominate to an extent that large swathes of null sec remain mostly empty due the ability to project force across the entire map without any great time or inconvenience. Whilst I appreciate the advantages brought about by titan bridges, jump bridges and other aids to logistics, the ease with which they can span the whole of eve is a very bad thing for getting people into null sec space and is noticably having the opposite effect in this corner of New Eden. I don't want eve to to strangle on this overly powerful feature which is why I was asking if it was more widespread than my own experiences.


Quite the opposite.

If I had to haul my **** 40+ jumps to get to Deklein for some fights, I probably wouldn't be living in null.

just because this hurts bottom feeders is no grounds to call it broken. It minimizes tedium in EVE, which is a very good thing.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#44 - 2012-02-23 03:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Valei Khurelem wrote:
I want to ask 0.0 alliances something, if there really are wars going on and your actively seeking to beat the crap out of each other? Then why the hell is it that there are alliances there that have the time to gate camp stargates to low sec and yet leave their back doors open?

It's damn well suspicious, CCP seriously need to send some GM's over there and be hidden from local so they can check it out, this kind of thing is what makes destructible space stations in 0.0 a good idea to me.

Basically, one reason to camp enemy gates when there's a massive fleet battle on (because it can disrupt reinforcements by forcing them to convoy). But if you're taking part in the battle you wouldn't, maybe you'd hire mercs to do it. Mercs show up every now and then when we have big fleet battles, so we convoy as you'd expect. Actually we just make whole new fleets because you can actually lose a whole fleet of drakes now ...

Besides the worst your group of people running in our sov can do is reinforce a POS or something. And we'd know exactly when it comes out of RF. Yes, it sucks to be the carriers that have to rep the thing but seriously unless you used lazers, that'll eat up quite a bit of ammo, and for what? The joy of shooting POS. And usually some fleet or another will form to defend the POS while it gets reinforced.


Usually though, a roaming gatecamp would roam in the enemy system (like they do to us). Both sides rather just be smart about jumping though gates rather than try to CTA everytime some group of 5 cruisers sits on a gate.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#45 - 2012-02-23 04:05:10 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:

As another solution to null sec deserts controlled by large alliances, I'm curious if anyone has an opinion on the idea of smallholding proposed a while ago in a devblog. It seems like an ideal way to be able to infest deserted sov claimed by large alliances as a small entity, if designed so that it is generally too much of a pain for the large alliances to root out the smallholds set up in out of the way areas.



This is the one of the things that I was really hopeing wouldn't get forgotten in all the brewhaha that happend in and around CCP last summer and fall.

I have to say I really liked the direction where those ideas where going, but alas I think it may be a while before we get to any specifics. I hope not, but there's a lot on CCP plate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#46 - 2012-02-23 04:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Smallholding sounds great!
Quote:
It should be possible for the bigger players to evict the smaller ones without too much investment, but it should take time to do so. This makes evicting or otherwise clearing out people more of a chore and thus a less trivial decision; it makes smaller investments less risky by ensuring an attentive owner has time to pull down their stuff and move it elsewhere; and it gives a needed sense of safety and stability to people who are concerned about the risks. The larger the investment becomes and the more functionality or power it affords, the less this should be the case, moving towards less time but more investment to remove it.

We could have small gangs running about to clear out -OH- smallholdings all over our bloody sov.

And PL could have people set them up so that they can hotdrop 30 titans on each smallholding-clearing gang!

Quote:
Shoot people, not structures

Extensive empirical testing has shown that shooting at structures is in-and-of-itself boring, and even when it results in a good fight, it generally does so in spite of the structure-shooting mechanic rather than because of it. There are other ways to achieve the upsides of sitting in front of a stationary object with your weapons cycling for half an hour that don't make it indescribably tedious if the other side doesn't show up.

Hmm, I think they don't quite get the end-game of ~elite pvp~ is Player vs POS.

Like this one time, we shot our own POS. But guess what, when it came out of reinforce timer, the titans didn't show up. So we shot it to death to anchor a better POS. Luckily small POSes are just as invulnerable as large ones when their timer is ticking.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-02-23 07:40:41 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
[quote=Red Templar]
I can only see this balance being re-established if travel becomes more of a burden to a fighting force and if leaving vacant systems behind becomes a real risk to your holdings. Empty space that cannot easily be taken by smaller entities prevents entry into null sec for many.

I hope that helps set out what I'm trying to convey?

There will be no balance. What you will achieve, is that players will have to do a lot more boring stuff - traveling by foot. Its not fun, its not exciting. And this will cause a lot of players to either abandon nullsec or even game itself.
Also it will not stop alliances from projecting their power, it will just make the game more boring to players. And really, what is the purpose of having large military alliance, if you cannot project that power/start war/defend allies? They will still go to war, and you will still not be able to take their space, because clonejumps! *duh*
So the solution of adding more burden that will frustrate and annoy players - is not really a solution. It will not prevent stifling of the gameplay, as you put it.

Empty space that cannot be taken - that is an issue, i somewhat agree. But its not a problem with JB's or titan bridges. Those only add fast travel and allow more tactical maneuvering and hotdrops, nothing wrong with that. Unless you really want nullsec to become deserted.

The problem is stupid sov mechanics. And nobody likes that. Not even nullsec alliances. Its boring structure grinding with dumb timers and no actual options for guerilla warfare.
These are hopefully will change, since a lot of people are pushing for changes in that area. If we see less structure grind, maybe destructable outposts, or some other features, then smaller entities will be able to play more active role.
And just nerfing structure HP will not help. We need to see some changes to mechanic itself, more options, more features that would allow smaller alliances to try and take space from larger and slower entities.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
Valei Khurelem
#48 - 2012-02-23 08:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:

When you see a gatecamp bordering null it's more likely lowsec corps camping areas of opportunity rather than alliance camps. Folks posting with no null experience are spreading disinformation through their lack of null experience.


I remember exactly who they were and I noted them down, are you an alt. of a 0.0 alliance player trying to cover up what's going on there? Here's who I saw in space.

. At one entrance which I used first there were pirate nation members everywhere and it was at a chokepoint system, I'd go there even after a few days of staying in 0.0 and they'd still be there, their camps weren't as organised though so I snuck through they tended to just leave warp bubbles at gates rather than watch them properly. They also were denying a good chunk of Blood Raider space to anyone else as if they actually owned it

. At another entrance closer to high sec space it was Cascade Imminent that was camping with about 7 - 8 people showing up, lots of warp bubbles and they were actively trying to gank people but I snuck past them again because their warp bubbles were poorly placed, I didn't use that entrance again though because I was carrying valuables

. In the rest of NPC space I mostly spotted -HUN- Reloaded ( did I get that right? ) members, they were either clearly bots because they instantly disappeared when I decided to do stuff or they just didn't give a **** as much as the other alliances

Gatecamping is a major issue and it needs fixing, either through anti-blob tactics or more extreme means, if I were to be a complete jackass to 0.0 alliances and not care about their feelings I would consider putting 100km no combat zones around NPC stations and Stargates ( everything else would stay the same ) just so that people can pass through and some form of economy get kick started.

The reason I think 0.0 players who rant at me are full of ****, is they're not trying to defend their sovereignty, because otherwise they'd be protecting their borders ( which they don't ) they go around denying entire regions of 0.0 to the majority of the player base who otherwise might have gone in and explored. They don't own NPC space, so why the hell should they have any right to gate camp it without any repercussions? ( You'd think the NPC factions would have something to say about it ) No one goes around stopping them, I don't see other alliances picking fights with them. Solo and Small gangs also have no means of fighting against them without training they have to do in high sec because skill books and blueprint originals aren't sold at NPC stations.

You also have the problem of mass science and industry spam on the public NPC stations, that means that they are denying any chance for anyone to set up a real market in NPC space as well so that people can buy stuff and do things.

The sandbox in EVE is dead and the players who showed up first killed it, that's why so many people stay in high sec now.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Lexmana
#49 - 2012-02-23 08:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Valei Khurelem wrote:
They don't own NPC space, so why the hell should they have any right to gate camp it without any repercussions?

This is a sandbox remember. It they say they own it and you believe (obey) them then they actually do own it. Working as intended.
Valei Khurelem
#50 - 2012-02-23 08:18:28 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
They don't own NPC space, so why the hell should they have any right to gate camp it without any repercussions?

This is a sandbox remember. It they say they own it and you believe (obey) them then they actually do own it. Working as intended.


It amazes me with the amount of insults and stupid comments you've thrown at me you can come along and say something like that on top of it all, no wonder this game is going to hell.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Lexmana
#51 - 2012-02-23 08:26:18 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
They don't own NPC space, so why the hell should they have any right to gate camp it without any repercussions?

This is a sandbox remember. It they say they own it and you believe (obey) them then they actually do own it. Working as intended.


It amazes me with the amount of insults and stupid comments you've thrown at me you can come along and say something like that on top of it all, no wonder this game is going to hell.


I guess we just see things differently. I like the EVE sandbox because of the above. You want to change it to something else.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#52 - 2012-02-23 08:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Valei Khurelem wrote:
The reason I think 0.0 players who rant at me are full of ****, is they're not trying to defend their sovereignty, because otherwise they'd be protecting their borders ( which they don't ) they go around denying entire regions of 0.0 to the majority of the player base who otherwise might have gone in and explored.


Random hostiles flying around in your space is not even close to a threat to your sov.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#53 - 2012-02-23 08:37:32 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
[quote]The reason I think 0.0 players who rant at me are full of ****, is they're not trying to defend their sovereignty, because otherwise they'd be protecting their borders ( which they don't ) they go around denying entire regions of 0.0 to the majority of the player base who otherwise might have gone in and explored.


Random hostiles flying around in your space is not even close to a threat to your sov.


And you learn to not engage them. They are trolling your space for easy kills. Usually 'Kloaked comes to mind.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Valei Khurelem
#54 - 2012-02-23 08:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
I guess we just see things differently. I like the EVE sandbox because of the above. You want to change it to something else.


If we do things your way we have to keep opening up new systems etc. so that it matches the amount of players because the game isn't balanced enough that a small fleet can't take control of a system from a large alliance that's what my problem is and why I suggested putting in a lot more wormhole systems would be an option, alliances and corps could also set up PoS' there and so on to get past the problem of not having enough science and industry for themselves.

If you're just denying entire regions to people then that's just a poorly designed PvP game, it's not a sandbox, if it were a sandbox I should see borders changing constantly and huge alliances like GoonSwarm being toppled, the only reason they're going to be taken out in this game is because of them being cocky and using CSM to mess with the game just like with how BoB were supposedly got aid from devs.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-02-23 08:48:22 UTC
If I see some random neutral in local while moving around, do you really expect me to drop everything, bring in a prober alt and waste a ton of time looking for you, or just assume that you are cloaked, report in intel and move on?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lexmana
#56 - 2012-02-23 09:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Valei Khurelem wrote:
if it were a sandbox I should see borders changing constantly and huge alliances like GoonSwarm being toppled,


You know, I believe they actually are (though it could probably be improved maybe in the summer war expansion). It is just that EVE is played in another pace than most other games. Remember, It takes eight weeks just to build a titan and many months to train for it and some scams take the better part of a year to pull off.

When setting higher goals in EvE you better not think in days or weeks. Months or even years are sometimes needed.

That said, I think there are things we can improve in EVE. But not to change the whole game to cater to an instant gratification playstyle. That is just not EVE.
Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-02-23 09:08:07 UTC
How can you call Fountain a desert when you are here generating plenty of water via your tasty tears?
Valei Khurelem
#58 - 2012-02-23 09:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
That said, I think there are things we can improve in EVE. But not to change the whole game to cater to an instant gratification playstyle. That is just not EVE.


If you don't want instant gratification you should be getting a bloody job, not playing a game, it's that simple, this is what games are about and why MMORPGs as a genre almost always suck.

Dev 1: Lets put 10000000 points of HP on our NPCs and make them nearly invinicible so players are forced to shoot at them forever

Dev 2: Sounds great! Should we put acceleration gates in too to make them have to spend money on afterburners/mwd's and wait longer just to get through one mission?

Dev 1: Lets do real time training and make it last for days and days, they shouldn't make any progress on it if they're unsubscribed!

Dev 2: That's brilliant! We can make the training last for years and they'll have to stay subscribed if they want to fly titans!

Dev 1: Perfect! Let's do all of it and they'll be forced to stay subscribed for ages if they want to make any progress! We'll make millions! We won't even have to program any new content or gameplay either!

Dev 1 and Dev 2: Why is everyone leaving?


I'm telling you, if games companies could get away with forcing players to stay subscribed they would, in fact when SWG was dying SOE tried charging my account even after it had been cancelled because they were hoping to scam a bit of cash off us hoping that I wouldn't notice.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#59 - 2012-02-23 10:26:36 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:

If you don't want instant gratification you should be getting a bloody job, not playing a game, it's that simple, this is what games are about and why MMORPGs as a genre almost always suck.

Not mutually exclusive. And EVE is all about delayed gratification.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-02-23 12:01:35 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Why should space feel large?

Okay, space is big. But when I log into EVE, I want to play, not spend 3 hours traveling.



There are jump bridges for that that ask man hours of work and this is not game breaking, it's a due reward for effort.

Then you have titans, bring a stupid cloacky alt light a cyno, jump titan logofski.

One has to coordinate dozens of people dedicated to this simple task that is refuel POS/JB's, so they can defend their frontiers vs serious attacks and the other only has to send hundreds or thousands (yes thousands) of players to system "x" join the Titan, bridge, logofki titan.

WTF? -no one see a problem in this stuff? -mobile JB, clone vat, giga gun, xl gun cruiser sniper better than battleships (!), hangar.

Question