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CCP Tallest would love you forever if....

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Your'God
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#221 - 2012-02-24 17:55:26 UTC
Actually, it's pretty sad that ccp let themselves be dictated stuff by people not knowing anything about game meachnis.

Most of the kills titans score to subcaps is not because titan tracking is too good, it's because of people not knowing how to manually fly their ships.
A tank fitted titan right now does not track a Battleship orbittng it in under 50km, above that the damage output gets significantly reduced to the point that the battleship can just warp away/tank. But if said ship does stupid stuff like directly flying into the titan guns, it's a nobrainer (at least for people who know basic game mechanics).

Basically every single bigger turrent ship can kill ANY other ship if the conditions are right (some might call it a skilled player vs a unskilled player (talking about actual game knowledge, not SP, ))and this is how it is supposed to be. Why would anyone want it to be different is beyond me.

Now let's see a few side facts about titans vs dreads (poor man's titan if you will):

  • A titan can only be produced in nullsec
  • A titan takes over 2 months to build, not factoring in the effort the logistics and the danger to get ganked in the process
  • A titan is in constant danger to get killed while buildung
  • A titan is by far the most expensive ship
  • A titan can't effectifely be shared and the pilot/account is stuck with it
  • If a titan dies it's a major blow since you loose the isk, the titan capabilities and it usually can't be replaced. Additionally, a titan loss is a big morale blow for the loosing faction and the killing faction will get more people in their fleets. Also the side loosing titans will probably have less titan pilots volunteering for the next ops
  • Deploying titans is a very risky manouver since every time more then 1 ship with a jump drive uses the cyno, the risk of getting bumped is significant. With the EHP levels and the agility/speed of capitals, an isolated titan can easily be killed by competent pilots
  • crashed and agressed Titan is a big issue
  • Dreads are insurable, you actually get a big amount of the isk you invested back into your wallet
  • Dreads do more damage then a titan
  • Dreads are 5min immobile while in Siege, but have the same ew-invulnerability as supercaps
  • Dread production chain is easier and costs way way less
  • Dreads can be built safely in stations
  • Dreads can be traded; allowing a corp or alliance to have a stack available for everyone
  • ...


CCP folks, i once again ask you to factor everything in since it sure does look like you guys are only doing what certain people been shouting at you to do, but that doesn't make it right in the game balance sense. If you listen to certain game faction (which you absolutely should not since the game itself should be balanced not favoring any in-game factions), they effectively want the titans offensive capability removed making it completely useless.
That also means that way less titans will be fielded which also results in less "epic" space battles like your trailers want us make believe.

The subcap dd nerf was a good idea since it involved in the subcap fight way to easy by oneshotting important ships, but nerfing the titan further so it can't do stuff it can right now is in my humble opionen the wrong way.

There are a lot of other people in this thread making valid points game balance wise (for example saying "dreads are a counter" or "having to many of any ship is an issue, but isn't that the sandbox feature CCP advertises this game to begin with?").

Listen to them :)
Nao Oikawasan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-02-24 18:03:10 UTC
Ra Death wrote:


I'm sorry, but you fail to see my point. If goons and co keep throwing their head against the wall with ships that can get tracked by titans, perhaps they should adapt and switch to other doctrins. That is what -A- and the southern coalitions have done and it is working for them. It was not 4 days ago, the same fight i referenced in my original post, where PL dropped their entire supercap fleet in order to save a supercarrier. It was too late, so they lost the Hel, but they still sat around with no recourse for an hour. They even had to setup a bubble in the middle of their fleet to avoid losing more supercaps to disconnects. So yes, this is a reference to an actual -A- win. If Rusrus had committed their full capital fleets and perhaps batphoned other alliances that hate PL, they would have gotten a lot of PL supercapital kills. No doubt about it. PL only got out because -A- and friends decided to withdraw.

The money argument is also silly. If you want to design a game around how to get the most subscribers, I think you are in the wrong business. I want a game where there is incentive for old players to stay and play with their big toys that they have played a lot to receive and chance for new players to make a difference. There is this chance at the moment for that, but not if the new players never try to adapt but just continue banging their head against the wall.

If you want to win in the sandbox, you should come up with something original and not just build the same old muddy thing over and over.

Titan tracking nerf will solve the problem goons are facing, it will not solve the problem that EVE is facing.


IF Rusrus had committed their full capital fleets? IF? Wrong. They did not commit because they would have been slaughtered to the last man. They managed a single supercarrier? Oh man! I was totally wrong. So that's it then? PL lost a super and now they have to start all over again? And they had to sit around for an hour? EPIC!

Your money argument paragraph is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If you design a game you must design it in a way that attracts the most subscribers. That's called business. It's how you pay the bills and bankroll more cash to improve the game for future subscribers and old alike.

My throat is sore from laughing at your "wrong business" comment.
Ra Death
Samsara Exploration and Trade
#223 - 2012-02-24 18:03:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Ah yes, you mean the fight in which PL made every mistake going, jumped in a titan fleet with no sub cap support into a AAA subcap fleet that outnumbered them 4 to one. The fight which AAA had to abandon because they still could not beat the titans dispite their hero dictors getting the entire titan fleet bubbled and their FCs doing a fantastic job of keeping their fleet alive.

The only reason the two supers died was because they were shield tanked and managed to leroy. AAA won the isk war no doubt, but they did not win the fight, they were forced to leave because they could not do anything more and every moment more they waited increaced the chances of enemy subcaps or even more supers arriving.


You are missing the majority of my points.

-A- did not need to bubble the hostile titan fleet because:

  • They had either bubbled themselves to avoid disconnects (they anchored several large bubbles I am told)
  • They could not risk jumping/warping out because someone would undoubtedlly be left behind, to die.

    • The reason PL supers died was not because they were shield tanked, it was because the first guy jumped in like a ****** when the PL supercaps were already jumped out and then there was a disconnected super that they caught.

    PL didn't lose more supers because -A- and friends chose not to escalate the fight by bringing in the needed DPS (their own+allies supers).

    PL were indeed stupid for not having a support fleet there, but the point of a support fleet is that you can fight that independently because supers are really hard to move around in large numbers.

    The fact still remains that with the right setups you can effectively counter and isolate supers, you just need to switch away from the cookie cutter doctrins that you use for every single other fight.
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #224 - 2012-02-24 18:06:14 UTC
    Nao Oikawasan wrote:


    IF Rusrus had committed their full capital fleets? IF? Wrong. They did not commit because they would have been slaughtered to the last man. They managed a single supercarrier? Oh man! I was totally wrong. So that's it then? PL lost a super and now they have to start all over again? And they had to sit around for an hour? EPIC!

    Your money argument paragraph is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If you design a game you must design it in a way that attracts the most subscribers. That's called business. It's how you pay the bills and bankroll more cash to improve the game for future subscribers and old alike.

    My throat is sore from laughing at your "wrong business" comment.


    I don't know why rusrus didn't commit, but from the recordings I have heard of PL comms, they were pretty sure they were going to be slaughtered if rusrus had commited caps. That's generally how it works. The entire point is that a subcap fleet was able to hold down a supercap fleet without bubbles.

    I am disappointed you think that appealing to a broad audience automatically makes a good game. By that logic we'd all be playing World of Warcraft. Laugh all you want, I enjoy my game well-thought-out with an emphasis on gameplay, not subscription numbers.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #225 - 2012-02-24 18:10:28 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:


    Ah yes, you mean the fight in which PL made every mistake going, jumped in a titan fleet with no sub cap support into a AAA subcap fleet that outnumbered them 4 to one. The fight which AAA had to abandon because they still could not beat the titans dispite their hero dictors getting the entire titan fleet bubbled and their FCs doing a fantastic job of keeping their fleet alive.

    The only reason the two supers died was because they were shield tanked and managed to leroy. AAA won the isk war no doubt, but they did not win the fight, they were forced to leave because they could not do anything more and every moment more they waited increaced the chances of enemy subcaps or even more supers arriving.


    You are missing the majority of my points.

    -A- did not need to bubble the hostile titan fleet because:

  • They had either bubbled themselves to avoid disconnects (they anchored several large bubbles I am told)
  • They could not risk jumping/warping out because someone would undoubtedlly be left behind, to die.

    • The reason PL supers died was not because they were shield tanked, it was because the first guy jumped in like a ****** when the PL supercaps were already jumped out and then there was a disconnected super that they caught.

    PL didn't lose more supers because -A- and friends chose not to escalate the fight by bringing in the needed DPS (their own+allies supers).

    PL were indeed stupid for not having a support fleet there, but the point of a support fleet is that you can fight that independently because supers are really hard to move around in large numbers.

    The fact still remains that with the right setups you can effectively counter and isolate supers, you just need to switch away from the cookie cutter doctrins that you use for every single other fight.


    Not a single titan was lost in the biggest welp you can possibly make. The reason PL did not jump out is simple, they had no reason to because AAA could not break them. Even if PL did bubble themselves, AAA still had to go a bubble them to stop them getting away because relying upon your enemy to bubble themselves for an entire fight is rather stupid.

    The very fact that you think this is a loss for PL shows just how bad the balance currently is given this is the best people can manage vs the titan heavy fleets.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #226 - 2012-02-24 18:10:56 UTC
    wow i really like where this thread is going... started off as a where waldo and ended up with soo many tears... bravo my friends...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #227 - 2012-02-24 18:13:39 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:
    Weaselior wrote:
    I would paste the countless rifters killed by titans but that would require dealing with our killboard


    Yes, if you mwd straight toward a titan, you will lose a rifter, like it should be. But the ENTIRE situation that -A-/Gypsy had the other day with their tengus, who have bigger sigs than rifters minds you, shows that there are ways around dealing with titans and people are starting to learn and adapt.

    When dealing with massive fleets of titans, you are always at zero transversal with someone. A solitary titan is not unbalanced. A blob is.

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
    Nao Oikawasan
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #228 - 2012-02-24 18:13:43 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:


    I don't know why rusrus didn't commit, but from the recordings I have heard of PL comms, they were pretty sure they were going to be slaughtered if rusrus had commited caps. That's generally how it works. The entire point is that a subcap fleet was able to hold down a supercap fleet without bubbles.

    I am disappointed you think that appealing to a broad audience automatically makes a good game. By that logic we'd all be playing World of Warcraft. Laugh all you want, I enjoy my game well-thought-out with an emphasis on gameplay, not subscription numbers.


    I just told you why they didn't commit.

    If your "well-thought-out" plan is so good, why don't you create a business plan and submit it to your investors?

    I'm sure they'll be pleased as punch to give you some money to start operations ASAP.
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #229 - 2012-02-24 18:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
    conqueror2006 wrote:
    Weaselior wrote:
    are you accusing us of using ccp internal info to come up with the ice interdiction



    me no

    Your boss yes



    Quote Originally Posted by The Mittani View Post
    We're going to wreck the entire EVE economy

    I came up with the interdiction, and that post was my post on goonswarm. Mittens just copied it to kugu. That specific line was authored by adanthar, one of the other finance directors.

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #230 - 2012-02-24 18:18:50 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:


    Not a single titan was lost in the biggest welp you can possibly make. The reason PL did not jump out is simple, they had no reason to because AAA could not break them. Even if PL did bubble themselves, AAA still had to go a bubble them to stop them getting away because relying upon your enemy to bubble themselves for an entire fight is rather stupid.

    The very fact that you think this is a loss for PL shows just how bad the balance currently is given this is the best people can manage vs the titan heavy fleets.


    I'm fairly certain you can make bigger mistakes than the one made by PL a few days ago :) I can name a few. They could have started to jump out, eventually causing a few supers to get trapped by the cloaked dictors that were sitting off them (in all likelyhood). They could have jumped in 1 titan instead of their entire titan fleet, that would have been a bigger welp.

    If PL could have gotten out before, they would have. They were committed because they didn't want to risk anymore super losses. No matter how you twist and turn it, PL did not leave till -A- and friends left. If they had pulled the trigger with bringing in supers, they could have taken down PL titans and supercarriers. It all depends on their numbers though.... but to reliterate my point. The titans were HELPLESS against the small tengus and were sitting only killing the idiots in the enemy fleets.

    Titans sacrifice a lot of HP to be able to hit battlecruisers and battleships, it's a tradeoff like anything else.

    Only judging fights on the result and not the potential there was is a fallacy of epic proportions.
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #231 - 2012-02-24 18:21:14 UTC
    Weaselior wrote:

    When dealing with massive fleets of titans, you are always at zero transversal with someone. A solitary titan is not unbalanced. A blob is.


    Unless you're flying at exactly the same speed as the titan, going in the same direction, or you're sitting completely still, you are never at zero transversal. God forbid people actually use some brains in combat instead of just anchoring up and following broadcasts.
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #232 - 2012-02-24 18:23:25 UTC
    in this case 'zero transversal' would be correctly interpreted by anyone with half a brain as 'effectively zero transversal' i.e. the cone wherein you will get blapped regardless of sig

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #233 - 2012-02-24 18:23:58 UTC
    and of course they would translate transversal into angular velocity

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
    Petrus Blackshell
    Rifterlings
    #234 - 2012-02-24 18:25:01 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:
    The fact still remains that with the right setups you can effectively counter and isolate supers, you just need to switch away from the cookie cutter doctrins that you use for every single other fight.

    This is the same argument as the small gang argument of "fit ECCM to all your ships and you'll see that Falcons are not overpowered". That may be a counter, but it is very specific and gimps your fits against the numerous other things you can encounter that are not Falcons.

    Another parallel for both these situations is the small number of overpowered ships it takes to make your fleet have to change your whole composition:

    If a 20-man BC gang encounters another 15-man BC gang that has a single Falcon, the result of the fight is almost definitely the latter winning. If the former had ECCM fit, they might be able to kill the 15-man gang, but they wouldn't be able to kill a 20-man gang without a Falcon -- which is still very probable to encounter.

    If a 1000-man BS fleet encounters a 800-man BS fleet that also has 50 titans, the latter is going to have a significant advantage due to titans being able to potshot BSes. The former can use a few hundred dreads to kill titans, but if they encounter no titans, they are setting themselves up to lose a bunch of dreads.

    It all centers around the fact that setting up to counter something that "might" happen ends up gimping your whole fleet. And, in large fleet battles it is far more likely that someone in the 1000-man fleet is a spy and lets the enemy know about the anti-titan setup, than that one of the titans is a spy and lets the other side know about the planned titan shooting gallery coming up.

    Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #235 - 2012-02-24 18:25:09 UTC
    Nao Oikawasan wrote:


    I just told you why they didn't commit.

    If your "well-thought-out" plan is so good, why don't you create a business plan and submit it to your investors?

    I'm sure they'll be pleased as punch to give you some money to start operations ASAP.


    They didn't commit because they didn't want to lose their own supers, it's fair enough. I can totally understand that. That scenario happens often with other events and other circumstances. But this whole event proved that a supercap blob can be contained and outmaneuvered if you use smarts and you adapt to it.

    If -A- and friends had brought Maelstroms and Drakes, what they did wouldn't have been possible.

    Are you seriously going on about your business plan for investors etc? Go play world of warcraft, lots of investors for that crap. I play EVE online because it's a niche game that appeals to what I enjoy in terms of gameplay. And funnily enough, it's financially viable :)
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #236 - 2012-02-24 18:27:49 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:


    I'm fairly certain you can make bigger mistakes than the one made by PL a few days ago :) I can name a few. They could have started to jump out, eventually causing a few supers to get trapped by the cloaked dictors that were sitting off them (in all likelyhood). They could have jumped in 1 titan instead of their entire titan fleet, that would have been a bigger welp.

    If PL could have gotten out before, they would have. They were committed because they didn't want to risk anymore super losses. No matter how you twist and turn it, PL did not leave till -A- and friends left. If they had pulled the trigger with bringing in supers, they could have taken down PL titans and supercarriers. It all depends on their numbers though.... but to reliterate my point. The titans were HELPLESS against the small tengus and were sitting only killing the idiots in the enemy fleets.

    Titans sacrifice a lot of HP to be able to hit battlecruisers and battleships, it's a tradeoff like anything else.

    Only judging fights on the result and not the potential there was is a fallacy of epic proportions.


    AAA could not commit supers for two very good reasons.

    1. Their titan fleet is outnumbered and had no idea if this was a trap set so they would get counter dropped by even more supers and killed.

    2. If they commited and managed to kill all of the PL fleet their losses would have been horrible. They would have won, but it would have crippled their own titan fleet which would make their space even more vulnerable.

    PL titans were not helpless, if they were they would have died. AAA did a fantastic job but in the end, if they had not pulled off they would have eventually been killed to a man by the titan which do track tengu. The argument about EHP is also rather laughable given that a titans EHP even when fit for tracking is still greater than many fleets.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #237 - 2012-02-24 18:29:36 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:


    If -A- and friends had brought Maelstroms and Drakes, what they did wouldn't have been possible.




    They did bring Mealstroms...
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #238 - 2012-02-24 18:32:59 UTC
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    Ra Death wrote:
    The fact still remains that with the right setups you can effectively counter and isolate supers, you just need to switch away from the cookie cutter doctrins that you use for every single other fight.

    This is the same argument as the small gang argument of "fit ECCM to all your ships and you'll see that Falcons are not overpowered". That may be a counter, but it is very specific and gimps your fits against the numerous other things you can encounter that are not Falcons.

    Another parallel for both these situations is the small number of overpowered ships it takes to make your fleet have to change your whole composition:

    If a 20-man BC gang encounters another 15-man BC gang that has a single Falcon, the result of the fight is almost definitely the latter winning. If the former had ECCM fit, they might be able to kill the 15-man gang, but they wouldn't be able to kill a 20-man gang without a Falcon -- which is still very probable to encounter.

    If a 1000-man BS fleet encounters a 800-man BS fleet that also has 50 titans, the latter is going to have a significant advantage due to titans being able to potshot BSes. The former can use a few hundred dreads to kill titans, but if they encounter no titans, they are setting themselves up to lose a bunch of dreads.

    It all centers around the fact that setting up to counter something that "might" happen ends up gimping your whole fleet. And, in large fleet battles it is far more likely that someone in the 1000-man fleet is a spy and lets the enemy know about the anti-titan setup, than that one of the titans is a spy and lets the other side know about the planned titan shooting gallery coming up.


    There is always a tradeoff, that is how EVE works. You can't have it your way all the time which is exactly my point. If you nerf the ability to track BS/BC that on purpose fit sig increasing mods, you are essentially boiling EVE down to whatever 2 fleet doctrins that came out in the end as winners. Let's all play 'Maelstrom and Drake online'.

    If you don't want to be pwned by an enemy that thinks about his ship choices, perhaps you should start adapting and anticipating their choices. Just like you can sensor damp the falcon with a tackling Lachesis/Arazu/whatever, you can also think out of the box with your fleet doctrins.

    The titans are not the problem, the entire state of the current game mechanics is
    Ra Death
    Samsara Exploration and Trade
    #239 - 2012-02-24 18:34:18 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Ra Death wrote:


    If -A- and friends had brought Maelstroms and Drakes, what they did wouldn't have been possible.




    They did bring Mealstroms...


    But not a single one was destroyed according to EVE-kill. But that's not possible right?! :)

    http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12519023
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #240 - 2012-02-24 18:36:10 UTC
    Ra Death wrote:

    There is always a tradeoff, that is how EVE works. You can't have it your way all the time which is exactly my point. If you nerf the ability to track BS/BC that on purpose fit sig increasing mods, you are essentially boiling EVE down to whatever 2 fleet doctrins that came out in the end as winners. Let's all play 'Maelstrom and Drake online'.

    we are playing titans online and maelstrom and drake online >>>> titans online

    proper fleet composition right now: titans+SCS+dictors

    this fleet composition is correct regardless of what you're fighting incidentally

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.