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Autocannons and Minnie fittings balance
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Vladimir Smugdog
#41 - 2012-02-21 20:32:24 UTC
Cindy Marco wrote:
Minmatar are not the easy race to start with, they are too diversified. That would be Caldari. And it has been for many years. Thats why you see so many new players in Drakes. I believe they are still the most flown ship.

I understand what your trying to say, and I don't know about you, but I do fly all races ships.

You say the phoon is fine if you fit for short range, thats fair. But in that case the Geddon is perfectly fine when fitting for short range as well. They are both horrible to fit with long range weapons.


That's an old fallacy that anyone intelligent can see through. The only weapon system required for most t1 minmatar fits are autos, that's it. You can pretend ships like the typhoon or full-gank cyclone are the standard, but they are not.

Drakes do fall into a similar category and have the same advantages; however caldari and amarr in general do not get this luxury. Their t1 frigates are absolutely horrendous by comparison with low-sp. Try fitting a merlin without AWU, then if you can manage it, try to remember that it is a genuine 2/2 split weapon ship, not a rifter with a single weapon system and a utility high that can potentially fit a launcher. Move up to cruisers, every minmatar cruiser can use autos/neuts. Some amarr cruisers are laser, some are drone. Some caldari are hybrid, some are launcher. Amarr and caldari do not have a cruiser who can match the rutpure for ease of fitting. etc.

As for the geddon/phoon, the key difference is you have to fit undersized pulse lasers to fit mwd/tank/tackle. You will never have to fit undersized autos or HAMs instead of torps in a typhoon. Just take a look at both ships yourself, check the popular fits, make a few fits yourself. It's fairly easy to see the diffirences.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#42 - 2012-02-21 21:07:10 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:
Drakes do fall into a similar category and have the same advantages; however caldari and amarr in general do not get this luxury. Their t1 frigates are absolutely horrendous by comparison with low-sp. Try fitting a merlin without AWU, then if you can manage it, try to remember that it is a genuine 2/2 split weapon ship, not a rifter with a single weapon system and a utility high that can potentially fit a launcher. Move up to cruisers, every minmatar cruiser can use autos/neuts. Some amarr cruisers are laser, some are drone. Some caldari are hybrid, some are launcher. Amarr and caldari do not have a cruiser who can match the rutpure for ease of fitting. etc.


As an additional challenge, try some unguided missile fits on Caldari missile boats (torp raven, HAM tengu which doesn't work without fitting mods, etc).
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-02-21 21:46:01 UTC
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#44 - 2012-02-21 21:51:47 UTC
Plus 1 wrote:
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.


Meh, the Griffin, Blackbird, Scorp, Raven, and Tengu are all pretty noob friendly too.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-02-21 22:08:52 UTC
My phoon fits just fine with 5 T2 torp launchers, 2 heavy neuts, and a medium nos. It also sports a MWD and a decent armor tank w/o any fitting mods. For fair disclosure I generally do run around with fitting implants in my head to make some of the tighter Caldari fits work.

For that Tempest fit, why do you need to have 2 large neuts on what should be a long range fit? If you drop those to a pair of medium neuts you can run them longer and they still work well for frig/cruiser defense. You also free up slots for more tank/gank.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#46 - 2012-02-21 22:09:32 UTC
Plus 1 wrote:
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.


Missiles boats in general are noob friendly, since you don't need to train specialization skills for smaller missiles to access specialization skills for larger missiles (unlike guns).
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-02-21 22:14:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Plus 1 wrote:
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.


Meh, the Griffin, Blackbird, Scorp, Raven, and Tengu are all pretty noob friendly too.

-Liang

Griffin and BB for sure. For the rest, how big of a noob are we talking here?
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-02-21 22:20:15 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Plus 1 wrote:
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.


Missiles boats in general are noob friendly, since you don't need to train specialization skills for smaller missiles to access specialization skills for larger missiles (unlike guns).

This basically amounts to "you can flay a T2 Drake without Rocket or Standard Missile Specialization." You could include Raven in that, but why jump into a BS to pvp with while having **** support skills?
Vladimir Smugdog
#49 - 2012-02-21 22:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
Plus 1 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Plus 1 wrote:
Phoon is going to have to either use fitting mods, downsized guns, or downsized neuts if you want MWD + non-lol tank on it. Caldari is not the easiest race to train as a noob. Drake is noob friendly, but that's basically it.


Meh, the Griffin, Blackbird, Scorp, Raven, and Tengu are all pretty noob friendly too.

-Liang

Griffin and BB for sure. For the rest, how big of a noob are we talking here?


The kind that camps with orca support.

(Sorry that one was too easy)

Plus 1 wrote:

You could include Raven in that, but why jump into a BS to pvp with while having **** support skills?


Hence why I mentioned I don't think the phoon (like any other bs) is entirely relevant to the discussion I was having about fitting, espcially at lower skill point levels. It just happens to be the one-ship diatribe the minmatar fans go off on every time someone brings up the obvious about their t1 ships being quite easy to skill for and fit without a lot of sp. Thus it comes up again and again anyway.
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-02-21 22:23:57 UTC
Mongo Edwards wrote:
My phoon fits just fine with 5 T2 torp launchers, 2 heavy neuts, and a medium nos. It also sports a MWD and a decent armor tank w/o any fitting mods. For fair disclosure I generally do run around with fitting implants in my head to make some of the tighter Caldari fits work.


Your med nos is downsized, which is what I said had to happen (Technically I said neut but the fit reqs are the same).
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-02-21 22:27:42 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:


Plus 1 wrote:

You could include Raven in that, but why jump into a BS to pvp with while having **** support skills?


Hence why I mentioned I don't think the phoon (like any other bs) is entirely relevant to the discussion I was having about fitting, espcially at lower skill point levels. It just happens to be the one-ship diatribe the minmatar fans go off on every time someone brings up the obvious about their t1 ships being quite easy to skill for and fit without a lot of sp. Thus it comes up again and again anyway.

It's really not relevant, but posting about irrelevant things is my specialty.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#52 - 2012-02-21 22:29:43 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

The kind that camps with orca support.

(Sorry that one was too easy)


I direct your attention to this blog post: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4z

You might find something interesting in it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Smugdog
#53 - 2012-02-21 22:38:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

The kind that camps with orca support.

(Sorry that one was too easy)


I direct your attention to this blog post: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4z

You might find something interesting in it.

-Liang


Good natured ribbing my fellow spaceman.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2012-02-21 22:41:51 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

The kind that camps with orca support.

(Sorry that one was too easy)


I direct your attention to this blog post: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4z

You might find something interesting in it.

-Liang


Good natured ribbing my fellow spaceman.


I know, its why I responded as I did ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Smugdog
#55 - 2012-02-21 22:44:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

The kind that camps with orca support.

(Sorry that one was too easy)


I direct your attention to this blog post: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4z

You might find something interesting in it.

-Liang


Good natured ribbing my fellow spaceman.


I know, its why I responded as I did ;-)

-Liang


Couldn't trust the link given i'm still at work. Lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#56 - 2012-02-21 22:45:50 UTC
Vladimir Smugdog wrote:

Couldn't trust the link given i'm still at work. Lol


Eh, its just a blog post about being constantly accused of camping the Oso gate, and my personal opinion of it. If you can read Eve-O its probably perfectly safe.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Smugdog
#57 - 2012-02-21 22:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Smugdog
I braved the link and left amused. FW guys talk the best talk after they blob out everyone in system. Pirate

You should road-trip to gal space, I hear they hurf a lot harder.
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-02-21 23:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: IGNATIUS HOOD
DaRiKavus wrote:
While we are at it can CCP reduce the optimal of Lazors, the range of missiles, the damage of blasters as well as making sure no ships can go faster than 2000m/s.



WTF? no....

4/10
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
To mare
Advanced Technology
#59 - 2012-02-22 09:12:27 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

425mm Autocannon II 154 Pg (Largest Med Auto)
Focused Pule Laser II 132 Pg (Smallest Med Laser)

now if you consider the smallest med laser have a base dps of 29 with scorch and the largest autocannon have a base dps of 30 with barrage and the smallest laser outdamage the largest AC after 5 km i dont think AC fittings are so good
Vladimir Smugdog
#60 - 2012-02-22 12:30:08 UTC
To mare wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

425mm Autocannon II 154 Pg (Largest Med Auto)
Focused Pule Laser II 132 Pg (Smallest Med Laser)

now if you consider the smallest med laser have a base dps of 29 with scorch and the largest autocannon have a base dps of 30 with barrage and the smallest laser outdamage the largest AC after 5 km i dont think AC fittings are so good


Because clearly damage at optimal and fitting requirement are the two metrics, otherwise in a vacuum, right?