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Fixes gone wrong
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Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-20 17:42:34 UTC
Ok, before I post these complaints I would hope the EvE community realizes that these are not empire issues, these are pvp issues.

#1
Long ago CCP attempted to fix the decloaking from planets problem. You used to fly a covert ops cloaked ship through a planet and become decloaked, often without noticing. This was a real issue that resulted in a quick fix with no foresight of the future problems it caused.

From what it looks like, CCP literally just changed the exposure time necessary to become decloaked. By doing this, you would no longer be decloaked by a planet. Wonderful job by CCP, to just change a single number in the code and yay, all taken care of.

WRONG....
Now and for some time it has become impossible to decloak any ship that comes through a gate. It used to be that a fast ship could decloak a ship by burning towards it and getting within 2500 meters. This is no longer the case. The exposure time takes so long that if you manage to be near the cloaked ship long enough to manage a decloak, they will in all likelyhood be on their way into warp.
IN FACT, you can actually BUMP a cloaked ship with i.e. a dramiel, cynabal, vaga, etc and it won't decloak even then. This has lead more and more people into using covert ops t3 because it has become so hard to decloak even a double plated ship with a covert ops subsystem.

CCP needs to go back to the code and find a different way to fix this problem. Exposure time increase has simply made traveling pilots safer unintentionally and what should have occurred instead was changing the planet surface to a non-decloaking entity.


#2
I have been observing this for some time and I do admit, its entirely possible that I can live with this change granted the first issue is corrected.
It used to be when you jumped through a gate, you would be placed at some RANDOM spot around the gate at approximately 13km. This worked great because you had a chance of be placed too close to something or someone that could scram or decloak you upon warp initiation.
NOW...CCP has changed the random placement to a fluid placement based on the clearest location around the gate. If you have 100 people on one side of the gate, the pilot entering system will consistently be placed on the opposite side. If you are chasing a target, it won't matter if you get ahead of him, he'll be spawned across from you making a tackle difficult to impossible.

While I admit this change isn't a game breaking problem, it does cater to the PVP avoiders, which has been happening far too long. Its time to stop giving the Carebears so many tools to avoid what the core of this game is built around, COMBAT.
This change should be immediately rollbacked to its initial implementation.

Please comment on your experience with these issues and any ideas that may vary from my own.

Trolls need not respond, nor do you need to mention the literally hundreds of other changes CCP has made to cater toward the Bear.

Thanks
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#2 - 2012-02-20 17:44:39 UTC
TL;DR, first is a legitimate problem, second is just people wanting everyone to be forced into PVPing.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#3 - 2012-02-20 17:48:21 UTC
Oh noes, you have to actually try to get gate camp kills. You poor, poor man. Roll

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4 - 2012-02-20 17:51:32 UTC
Don't forget the "fix" that allows directors and CEOs to kick corp members while they are logged on and in space meaning that two corpmates who are shooting eachother can get concorded without warning if someone decides to kick one of them from corp.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-20 18:05:16 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
TL;DR, first is a legitimate problem, second is just people wanting everyone to be forced into PVPing.



Thank you for your response. I don't believe that the 2nd is forcing pvp on people, its a chance based spawn. It gives an equal chance that they spawn far away as it does that they spawn close. I only seek it to be fair to both parties, not lopsided toward one.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-20 18:06:27 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Oh noes, you have to actually try to get gate camp kills. You poor, poor man. Roll



Have you ever tried to decloak anyone before this issue or after?

It went from about a 20% chance if you were very good at it to a 1% chance.

Saying that I am not trying is just ignorant.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-20 18:07:15 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Don't forget the "fix" that allows directors and CEOs to kick corp members while they are logged on and in space meaning that two corpmates who are shooting eachother can get concorded without warning if someone decides to kick one of them from corp.



While I don't like that fix either, I am trying to focus on these 2 simple issues. Thank you for your response nonetheless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2012-02-20 18:09:07 UTC
Cosmo Raata wrote:
Valentyn3 wrote:
Oh noes, you have to actually try to get gate camp kills. You poor, poor man. Roll



Have you ever tried to decloak anyone before this issue or after?

It went from about a 20% chance if you were very good at it to a 1% chance.

Saying that I am not trying is just ignorant.


THeres a guy in my corp who has damn near 100% chance to decloak frigs. Calling you out on your not trying.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#9 - 2012-02-20 18:11:02 UTC
Spawn camping is a weak bottleneck game mechanic perpetrated by the engine. People cant help having to work with what they are given. CCP just cant think of any other way to narrow down the vastness of space so people meet.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-02-20 18:11:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cosmo Raata wrote:
Valentyn3 wrote:
Oh noes, you have to actually try to get gate camp kills. You poor, poor man. Roll



Have you ever tried to decloak anyone before this issue or after?

It went from about a 20% chance if you were very good at it to a 1% chance.

Saying that I am not trying is just ignorant.


THeres a guy in my corp who has damn near 100% chance to decloak frigs. Calling you out on your not trying.



Dude, I can bump cloaked ships and they don't decloak. So, if he does do a great job at it now, vs before this fix, I'd honestly want to know what he uses, because a dramiel with snakes can't even get the job done. I have a feeling you may be exaggerating just a tad.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#11 - 2012-02-20 18:12:31 UTC
Cosmo Raata wrote:
#2
I have been observing this for some time and I do admit, its entirely possible that I can live with this change granted the first issue is corrected.
It used to be when you jumped through a gate, you would be placed at some RANDOM spot around the gate at approximately 13km. This worked great because you had a chance of be placed too close to something or someone that could scram or decloak you upon warp initiation.
NOW...CCP has changed the random placement to a fluid placement based on the clearest location around the gate. If you have 100 people on one side of the gate, the pilot entering system will consistently be placed on the opposite side. If you are chasing a target, it won't matter if you get ahead of him, he'll be spawned across from you making a tackle difficult to impossible.

That's interesting! I didn't know that! So tell me if this seems sound: If I wanted to set up a gatecamp and instead of a drag bubble just catch people coming through a gate, I could litter the gate with cans but leave one section clear, and thus be assured of where the incoming ship will materialize? Is that right?

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-20 18:14:07 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Cosmo Raata wrote:
#2
I have been observing this for some time and I do admit, its entirely possible that I can live with this change granted the first issue is corrected.
It used to be when you jumped through a gate, you would be placed at some RANDOM spot around the gate at approximately 13km. This worked great because you had a chance of be placed too close to something or someone that could scram or decloak you upon warp initiation.
NOW...CCP has changed the random placement to a fluid placement based on the clearest location around the gate. If you have 100 people on one side of the gate, the pilot entering system will consistently be placed on the opposite side. If you are chasing a target, it won't matter if you get ahead of him, he'll be spawned across from you making a tackle difficult to impossible.

That's interesting! I didn't know that! So tell me if this seems sound: If I wanted to set up a gatecamp and instead of a drag bubble just catch people coming through a gate, I could litter the gate with cans but leave one section clear, and thus be assured of where the incoming ship will materialize? Is that right?


Haven't tried it with cans, simply because at least in empire they get scooped. Worth a try though, assuming cans even prevent cloaking now.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-02-20 18:15:43 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Spawn camping is a weak bottleneck game mechanic perpetrated by the engine. People cant help having to work with what they are given. CCP just cant think of any other way to narrow down the vastness of space so people meet.



Again, all I want is it to be truely random where you spawn. Its not right now, its set up to make pvp fail.

I can live with it, but this change by CCP is just plain catering toward the Bear.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#14 - 2012-02-20 18:19:44 UTC
If you got 100 people camping a gate and they are all on one side, you are doing it wrong.

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Martinez
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-20 18:20:16 UTC
Confirming that any changes that make people avoid pvp are bad for the game.

Thumbs up to these fixes.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-20 18:22:03 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
If you got 100 people camping a gate and they are all on one side, you are doing it wrong.



LOL, it was an extreme example.

Here, better example: If you are all orbiting the gate with drones out, person jumping in will end up in the greatest space available every time.
Gregoriuses
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-02-20 18:25:29 UTC
Word, there is more and more "issues" that are leaning towards total safety for people looking to profit without risk.

We need fixes !
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#18 - 2012-02-20 18:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Yah cans definitely still de-cloak ya. Corpses too.

Sounds like I have a fun thing to try at some point this week. So here's the plan: I'll have an alt in an indy come in and sprinkle cans and misc debris around the gate. I'll leave one section clear to the tune of about 5km of clearance in any direction (10 km diameter "clear space") from the center and bookmark that center point. I'll put an onyx 200km over the gate and cloak the alt on the other side. As soon as a blockade runner hits the gate and loads in local the onyx will swoop in to that center point of the "clear sphere" and bubble up. Even if the blockade runner is quick and lucky he'll still get decloaked by cans slow boating out of my trap. Profit. If this works you will be my hero.

Edit: The best thing you can do to get a mechanic changed is find a way to make it work for you and than abuse the hell out of it! Pirate

Signatures should be used responsibly...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2012-02-20 18:29:50 UTC
Cosmo Raata wrote:



Dude, I can bump cloaked ships and they don't decloak. So, if he does do a great job at it now, vs before this fix, I'd honestly want to know what he uses, because a dramiel with snakes can't even get the job done. I have a feeling you may be exaggerating just a tad.


http://kb.batcountry-eve.org/index.php/home/2012/1/

Last months KB. (this month is full of macks so its hard to pick out the other stuff)

As you can see there are a lot of small cloaky stuff getting killed (172 cov ops alone).

You are doing it wrong.
Cosmo Raata
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-02-20 18:34:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cosmo Raata wrote:



Dude, I can bump cloaked ships and they don't decloak. So, if he does do a great job at it now, vs before this fix, I'd honestly want to know what he uses, because a dramiel with snakes can't even get the job done. I have a feeling you may be exaggerating just a tad.


http://kb.batcountry-eve.org/index.php/home/2012/1/

Last months KB. (this month is full of macks so its hard to pick out the other stuff)

As you can see there are a lot of small cloaky stuff getting killed (172 cov ops alone).

You are doing it wrong.



Well, you my friend have a bubble up to give you more time. I've done decloaking without the use of a bubble. So unless you are one of those suggesting that pvp shouldn't be done in low or high sec, then you aren't convincing me that I am doing it wrong. While I do see now that this change hasn't hurt 0.0 much in terms of cloaking ships running about, it does make empire and low sec travel with cloaks super safe.

So, while I do recognize that you aren't wrong, you can hopefully also see that I am not wrong either.

Maybe give me some props for being able to decloak and point ships without the use of a bubble.
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